Graph Editor: Reevaluate Key and Handle Selection Behavior #70634

New Issue

Julian Eisel · 2019-10-08T12:06:18+02:00

Julian Eisel commented

2019-10-08 12:06:18 +02:00

Graph Editor: Reevaluate Key and Handle Selection Behavior

Disclaimer: While not a big change on the grand scheme of things, every little tweak to the Graph Editor selection behavior breaks muscle memory for animators - who typically rely on highly trained muscle memory. So we don't take these "tweaks" lightly.

We've just streamlined selection behavior across 2D editors for click and drag actions on items (nodes, VSE strips, Dopesheet keyframes, etc.).

As relevant to this topic, the following actions should work well together:

Click+drag on an item to select and move it in one go.
With multiple items selected, click+drag on one moves all (previously only moved the clicked on item). We'll refer to this as drag-all-selected.

This is incompatible with the current Graph Editor selection behavior:

You'd want to be able to click a key to unhide the curve-handles, and then just click+drag a single handle.

Issue is that currently, clicking a key to unhide the curve-handles also selects the handles. With *drag-all-selected*, dragging a handle would move both handles and the key. {F7796405} Note that this capture already includes tweaks to allow deselecting keys without that hiding the handles.

Besides this issues, we could solve further problems:

With default settings, it's not possible to select multiple handles, without the keys. To do that you have to either:
change the keymap so Box Select has the option Include Handles enabled and use that, or disable {nav View > Only Selected Keyframes Handles}.
When moving multiple items (e.g. through {nav G}), left and right handles are moved together. Usually you'd want only one side to move (or one side + the neighbour handle on the curve if selected).

There's intentionally no proposal in this description yet.

# Graph Editor: Reevaluate Key and Handle Selection Behavior *Disclaimer: While not a big change on the grand scheme of things, every little tweak to the Graph Editor selection behavior breaks muscle memory for animators - who typically rely on highly trained muscle memory. So we don't take these "tweaks" lightly.* ---- We've just streamlined selection behavior across 2D editors for click and drag actions on items (nodes, VSE strips, Dopesheet keyframes, etc.). As relevant to this topic, the following actions should work well together: * Click+drag on an item to select and move it in one go. ![click_drag_vse.gif](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F7796389/click_drag_vse.gif) * With multiple items selected, click+drag on one moves all (previously only moved the clicked on item). We'll refer to this as *drag-all-selected*. ![drag_all_selected_vse.gif](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F7796391/drag_all_selected_vse.gif) This is incompatible with the current Graph Editor selection behavior: * You'd want to be able to click a key to unhide the curve-handles, and then just click+drag a single handle. ``` Issue is that currently, clicking a key to unhide the curve-handles also selects the handles. With *drag-all-selected*, dragging a handle would move both handles and the key. {F7796405} Note that this capture already includes tweaks to allow deselecting keys without that hiding the handles. ``` ``` ``` Besides this issues, we could solve further problems: * With default settings, it's not possible to select multiple handles, without the keys. To do that you have to either: **change the keymap so Box Select has the option *Include Handles* enabled and use that, or** disable {nav View > Only Selected Keyframes Handles}. * When moving multiple items (e.g. through {nav G}), left and right handles are moved together. Usually you'd want only one side to move (or one side + the neighbour handle on the curve if selected). ---- *There's intentionally no proposal in this description yet.*

Julian Eisel commented

2019-10-08 12:06:18 +02:00

Added subscribers: @JulianEisel, @WilliamReynish

Oskar commented

2019-10-08 13:04:52 +02:00

Added subscriber: @Oskar3d

Oskar commented

2019-10-08 13:04:52 +02:00

I think this bug is relevant to the mentioned issues, so I'll just post it here:
https://developer.blender.org/T64106

I think this bug is relevant to the mentioned issues, so I'll just post it here: https://developer.blender.org/T64106

William Reynish commented

2019-10-09 11:07:01 +02:00

This issue is a little bit complicated in a way. I have surveyed what several other apps do here, and they solve this issue in various different ways.

Some apps solve it by making it so that if you select a keyframe in the Graph Editor, the handles are not also selected. And if you want to transform one or more handles, you must explicitly select them.

Other apps make it so that if you drag on a handle, only selected handles of that type (left or right) are transformed.

So my proposal would be:

We fix the issue with transforming the key only, so the handles move properly as children.
If you tweak-drag on a handle when both handles are selected, transform the handle you drag on, and also all other selected handles of that type (left or right).

Then Blender doesn't have to change too much and we don't have to compromise anything for users of the hotkeys
but it would be possible to use tweak-dragging in a reasonable way also.

This issue is a little bit complicated in a way. I have surveyed what several other apps do here, and they solve this issue in various different ways. Some apps solve it by making it so that if you select a keyframe in the Graph Editor, the handles are ***not*** also selected. And if you want to transform one or more handles, you must explicitly select them. Other apps make it so that if you drag on a handle, only selected handles of that type (left or right) are transformed. So my proposal would be: - We fix the issue with transforming the key only, so the handles move properly as children. - If you tweak-drag on a handle when both handles are selected, transform the handle you drag on, and also all other selected handles of that type (left or right). Then Blender doesn't have to change too much and we don't have to compromise anything for users of the hotkeys but it would be possible to use tweak-dragging in a reasonable way also.

Julian Eisel commented

2019-10-11 14:34:59 +02:00

I've done some experimental changes in a new branch, temp-graph-select-changes . Namely:

Handles now always move with the key, regardless if they are selected or not
Selecting the key doesn't select the handles anymore, their selection is separate.
Selection and dragging is consistent with Node Editor, VSE, Dopesheet, etc now, in that the same logic is applied to support drag-all-selected and selecting vs. dragging.

William and I agree that this can work well, but that dragging a handle should still only move handles on the side you clicked on. E.g. clicking a right handle only moves selected right handles, not left ones or keys.

We need to figure out how to do this. We usually don't tell the transform operator what was clicked on, it just operates on the selection. Note that we may not want to limit this behavior to click+dragging only, users may want this for {nav G}/{nav R}/{nav S} transform too.

Multiple ideas:

Add support for active handles/keys. Transform would use this to figure out if it should transform only one side (and which).
Let transform always use the handle side closest to the mouse press.
Let transform always use the handle side closest to the cursor (even for {nav G}/{nav R}/{nav S}).
When clicking on a selected handle, deselect all keys and all handles on the other side.

I've done some experimental changes in a new branch, [`temp-graph-select-changes` ](https://developer.blender.org/diffusion/B/browse/temp-graph-select-changes/). Namely: * Handles now always move with the key, regardless if they are selected or not * Selecting the key doesn't select the handles anymore, their selection is separate. * Selection and dragging is consistent with Node Editor, VSE, Dopesheet, etc now, in that the same logic is applied to support drag-all-selected and selecting vs. dragging. ---- William and I agree that this can work well, but that dragging a handle should still only move handles on the side you clicked on. E.g. clicking a right handle only moves selected right handles, not left ones or keys. We need to figure out how to do this. We usually don't tell the transform operator what was clicked on, it just operates on the selection. Note that we may not want to limit this behavior to click+dragging only, users may want this for {nav G}/{nav R}/{nav S} transform too. Multiple ideas: * Add support for active handles/keys. Transform would use this to figure out if it should transform only one side (and which). * Let transform always use the handle side closest to the mouse press. * Let transform always use the handle side closest to the cursor (even for {nav G}/{nav R}/{nav S}). * When clicking on a selected handle, deselect all keys and all handles on the other side.

Luciano Muñoz Sessarego commented

2019-10-12 04:08:20 +02:00

Added subscriber: @LucianoMunoz

Luciano Muñoz Sessarego commented

2019-10-12 04:08:20 +02:00

is there a way i can test run this ?

William Reynish commented

2019-10-17 10:59:18 +02:00

@JulianEisel

So, ideally I think this is how it should work:

We should try and leave G/R/S modal operator workflow as untouched as possible
Tweak-dragging any handle can never affect any keyframe location, only handles
When only handles only on one side is selected, that's the side that should be affected by tweak actions
When both handles are selected, tweaking a handle should only affect handles on that side (left vs right)

Does that make sense?

The logic could be a little bit difficult, because ideally it would be best if we can both tweak to affect specifically selected handles:

{F7828965, size=full}

But also that we deal with the more common case where both handles are selected:

{F7828958, size=full}

If that's too complex to support both, I think we should start by simply always making tweaking affect all the selected handles on the same side as the one you drag on, ie example #2 above. IMO this is much more common.

@JulianEisel So, ideally I think this is how it should work: - We should try and leave G/R/S modal operator workflow as untouched as possible - Tweak-dragging any handle can never affect any keyframe location, only handles - When only handles only on one side is selected, that's the side that should be affected by tweak actions - When both handles are selected, tweaking a handle should only affect handles on that side (left vs right) Does that make sense? The logic could be a little bit difficult, because ideally it would be best if we can both tweak to affect specifically selected handles: {[F7828965](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F7828965/Screen_Shot_2019-10-17_at_10.51.02.png), size=full} But also that we deal with the more common case where both handles are selected: {[F7828958](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F7828958/Screen_Shot_2019-10-17_at_10.52.32.png), size=full} If that's too complex to support both, I think we should start by simply always making tweaking affect all the selected handles on the same side as the one you drag on, ie example #2 above. IMO this is much more common.

Brecht Van Lommel commented

2019-10-25 05:25:22 +02:00

Added subscriber: @brecht

Brecht Van Lommel commented

2019-10-25 05:25:22 +02:00

At this point it's too late to do in 2.81 I think, so moving to next.

Julian Eisel commented

2019-10-30 18:10:40 +01:00

Okay, got the changes to work so that clicking a handle only moves selected handles on that side (temp-graph-select-changes branch). So basically, the behavior is as follows:

Handles now always move with the key, regardless if they are selected or not
Selecting the key doesn't select the handles anymore, their selection is separate.
Multiple keys and handles can now be dragged.
Dragging a handle moves all selected handles on the same side.
Tweak-dragging any handle can never affect any keyframe location, only handles
G/R/S should behave as before.

I had to do some hacks to get this to work, so I'd like to get some testing for stability too. I'll apply the changes on the machines of the animators here. Maybe I'll also create some test builds.

Okay, got the changes to work so that clicking a handle only moves selected handles on that side ([`temp-graph-select-changes` ](https://developer.blender.org/diffusion/B/browse/temp-graph-select-changes/) branch). So basically, the behavior is as follows: * Handles now always move with the key, regardless if they are selected or not * Selecting the key doesn't select the handles anymore, their selection is separate. * Multiple keys and handles can now be dragged. * Dragging a handle moves all selected handles **on the same side**. * Tweak-dragging any handle can never affect any keyframe location, only handles * G/R/S should behave as before. I had to do some hacks to get this to work, so I'd like to get some testing for stability too. I'll apply the changes on the machines of the animators here. Maybe I'll also create some test builds.

William Reynish commented

2019-10-30 18:18:16 +01:00

@JulianEisel that sounds correct to me. Will test asap

Julian Eisel commented

2019-11-12 16:58:06 +01:00

Added subscribers: @PabloFournier, @NachoConesa, @Hjalti

Julian Eisel commented

2019-11-12 16:58:06 +01:00

I let @Hjalti and @PabloFournier (the animators at the Blender Animation Studio) test my changes for some days. Both use RCS and usually don't use click+drag to move items, but the G/R/S workflow. @NachoConesa also gave some input but left the studio recently and wasn't able to test the changes. He uses LCS and click+drag.

Based on that I did quite some fixes (some in master), and the following further tweaks:

Changing the handle type with a key selected always applies the change to both handles.
Box selection with {nav Ctrl+Drag} now allows deselecting handles.
Box selection Include Handles option now only acts on visible handles, wasn't the case with Only Selected Keyframes Handles enabled.
Box selection Include Handles is now enabled by default in all bundled keymaps.

I will send the changes to review now.

I let @Hjalti and @PabloFournier (the animators at the Blender Animation Studio) test my changes for some days. Both use RCS and usually don't use click+drag to move items, but the G/R/S workflow. @NachoConesa also gave some input but left the studio recently and wasn't able to test the changes. He uses LCS and click+drag. Based on that I did quite some fixes (some in master), and the following further tweaks: * Changing the handle type with a key selected always applies the change to both handles. * Box selection with {nav Ctrl+Drag} now allows deselecting handles. * Box selection *Include Handles* option now only acts on visible handles, wasn't the case with *Only Selected Keyframes Handles* enabled. * Box selection *Include Handles* is now enabled by default in all bundled keymaps. I will send the changes to review now.

Julian Eisel commented

2019-11-22 17:01:14 +01:00

Changed status from 'Open' to: 'Resolved'

Julian Eisel closed this issue

2019-11-22 17:01:14 +01:00

Julian Eisel self-assigned this 2019-11-22 17:01:14 +01:00

Julian Eisel commented

2019-11-22 17:01:14 +01:00

Committed my changes now, b037ba2665. Thanks all!

Committed my changes now, b037ba2665. Thanks all!

Oskar commented

2019-11-26 13:48:13 +01:00

@JulianEisel I tested the new changes and they work very nice! Thank you!
I noticed something about the selection that I think could be improved. It's about box selecting the handles while "Only Selected Keyframe Handles" is on.
Maya

Blender

It works fine with click select, but not with box select.
For box select you need to disable "Only Selected Keyframe Handles" first, but I think it overcrowds the view with handles a bit.
I think it won't interfere with the current workflow and box select will be more consistent with the click select.

@JulianEisel I tested the new changes and they work very nice! Thank you! I noticed something about the selection that I think could be improved. It's about box selecting the handles while "Only Selected Keyframe Handles" is on. Maya ![maya_graph_box_select.gif](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F8168638/maya_graph_box_select.gif) Blender ![blender_graph_box_select.gif](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F8168637/blender_graph_box_select.gif) It works fine with click select, but not with box select. For box select you need to disable "Only Selected Keyframe Handles" first, but I think it overcrowds the view with handles a bit. I think it won't interfere with the current workflow and box select will be more consistent with the click select.

Daniel Paul commented

2019-11-26 14:16:14 +01:00

Added subscriber: @DanielPaul

Daniel Paul commented

2019-11-26 14:16:15 +01:00

Yes, please!

Julian Eisel commented

2019-11-26 14:21:51 +01:00

I think that would be a reasonable change. The 3D View already does it like this, other editors don't.
@WilliamReynish I think it would make sense to apply this to all editors? (At least if it doesn't turn out to be a bigger change)

I think that would be a reasonable change. The 3D View already does it like this, other editors don't. @WilliamReynish I think it would make sense to apply this to all editors? (At least if it doesn't turn out to be a bigger change)

Stanislav Ovcharov commented

2019-11-26 14:32:12 +01:00

Added subscriber: @StanislavOvcharov

Stanislav Ovcharov commented

2019-11-26 14:32:12 +01:00

It works similar if you check -include handles- in box select preferences but it works in a opposite way, you have to deselect unwanted handles. which I agreed is not so handy as you box select what you want

William Reynish commented

2019-11-28 02:41:50 +01:00

@JulianEisel Yes, indeed - makes sense to do this.

Oskar commented

2020-05-20 14:05:39 +02:00

I see that currently for the Graph Editor there are some very nice features/changes being developed. And a just want to remind about this small thing that we discussed several months ago.
I couldn't find an active task that is appropriate to add this comment to. Maybe it could be added as a papercut in this task https://developer.blender.org/T63901 .
@JulianEisel @WilliamReynish

In #70634#817939, @Oskar3d wrote:
@JulianEisel I tested the new changes and they work very nice! Thank you!
I noticed something about the selection that I think could be improved. It's about box selecting the handles while "Only Selected Keyframe Handles" is on.
Maya

Blender

It works fine with click select, but not with box select.
For box select you need to disable "Only Selected Keyframe Handles" first, but I think it overcrowds the view with handles a bit.
I think it won't interfere with the current workflow and box select will be more consistent with the click select.

I see that currently for the Graph Editor there are some very nice features/changes being developed. And a just want to remind about this small thing that we discussed several months ago. I couldn't find an active task that is appropriate to add this comment to. Maybe it could be added as a papercut in this task https://developer.blender.org/T63901 . @JulianEisel @WilliamReynish > In #70634#817939, @Oskar3d wrote: > @JulianEisel I tested the new changes and they work very nice! Thank you! > I noticed something about the selection that I think could be improved. It's about box selecting the handles while "Only Selected Keyframe Handles" is on. > Maya > ![maya_graph_box_select.gif](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F8168638/maya_graph_box_select.gif) > Blender > ![blender_graph_box_select.gif](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F8168637/blender_graph_box_select.gif) > It works fine with click select, but not with box select. > For box select you need to disable "Only Selected Keyframe Handles" first, but I think it overcrowds the view with handles a bit. > I think it won't interfere with the current workflow and box select will be more consistent with the click select.

Julian Eisel commented

2020-05-20 14:29:14 +02:00

I've done some changes to D7754 just yesterday, which essentially implement this behavior for curve objects. I think this is relatively easy to add to the graph editor, although I don't know if/when I'll get to look into it.

I've done some changes to [D7754](https://archive.blender.org/developer/D7754) just yesterday, which essentially implement this behavior for curve objects. I think this is relatively easy to add to the graph editor, although I don't know if/when I'll get to look into it.

Thomas Dinges added this to the 2.82 milestone 2023-02-08 16:41:47 +01:00

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Graph Editor: Reevaluate Key and Handle Selection Behavior #70634

Graph Editor: Reevaluate Key and Handle Selection Behavior