UI: Discussion Topics & Possible To-Do's for 3.0 #84380

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Julian Eisel · 2021-01-04T17:01:32+01:00

Julian Eisel commented

2021-01-04 17:01:32 +01:00

3.0 is the next chance to do breaking changes which should not go into normal releases. That may be: higher level design changes, muscle memory breaking, documentation breaking (e.g. changed operator names) or non-trivial visual changes. There should still be no .blend file compatibility breaking changes.

In this task we can collect such changes for consideration. This is not a "wish a feature" list. These are things we discussed already but couldn't do earlier because they would be too disruptive.

Active vs. selected (#82359 (Stronger binding of Active and Selected))
Keymap polish
- Consistent selection with modifier keys #78253 (Formalize Default Selection Behavior and Key-map)
- {key 1}/{key 2}/{key 3} for changing into vertex/edge/face edit mode #88071 (Keymap: use number keys for mode switching (2nd Iteration))
- {key D} for view-navigation sub-menu #88092 (Keymap: use D-key for view navigation pie-menu (2nd iteration)).
- {key Alt} usage #83689 (Default Keymap Update: Improve tool access using Alt-LMB)
Toolsystem wrap-up (change toolsystem defaults if needed)
Theme polish (#74358)
General defaults (Preferences, startup configuration, bundled workspaces, etc)
- Set default subdivision modifier levels to be 1 for viewport and render.
More dynamic file selection (e.g. show import/export settings based on file selection)
Reevaluate closing popups on mouse moves.
Improve naming:
Avoid "link" for anything unrelated to link/append (e.g. Link Materials -> Share Materials). Correct usages of "copy" (e.g. Copy Modifiers -> Replace Modifiers).
3D cursor default orientation method to "Surface"
#89266 (Investigate renaming the "Video Sequencer" editor)
#83612 (UI: Tracking: Migrate to active tools based toolbar)

3.0 is the next chance to do breaking changes which should not go into normal releases. That may be: higher level design changes, muscle memory breaking, documentation breaking (e.g. changed operator names) or non-trivial visual changes. There should still be no .blend file compatibility breaking changes. In this task we can collect such changes for consideration. This is not a "wish a feature" list. These are things we discussed already but couldn't do earlier because they would be too disruptive. * Active vs. selected (#82359 (Stronger binding of Active and Selected)) * Keymap polish - Consistent selection with modifier keys #78253 (Formalize Default Selection Behavior and Key-map) - {key 1}/{key 2}/{key 3} for changing into vertex/edge/face edit mode #88071 (Keymap: use number keys for mode switching (2nd Iteration)) - {key D} for view-navigation sub-menu #88092 (Keymap: use D-key for view navigation pie-menu (2nd iteration)). - {key Alt} usage #83689 (Default Keymap Update: Improve tool access using Alt-LMB) * Toolsystem wrap-up (change toolsystem defaults if needed) * Theme polish (#74358) * General defaults (Preferences, startup configuration, bundled workspaces, etc) - [ ] Set default subdivision modifier levels to be 1 for viewport and render. * More dynamic file selection (e.g. show import/export settings based on file selection) * Reevaluate closing popups on mouse moves. * Improve naming: **Avoid "link" for anything unrelated to link/append (e.g. *Link Materials* -> *Share Materials*).** Correct usages of "copy" (e.g. *Copy Modifiers* -> *Replace Modifiers*). * 3D cursor default orientation method to "Surface" * #89266 (Investigate renaming the "Video Sequencer" editor) * #83612 (UI: Tracking: Migrate to active tools based toolbar)

Julian Eisel commented

2021-01-04 17:01:32 +01:00

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RedMser commented

2021-01-04 17:04:00 +01:00

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TheRedWaxPolice commented

2021-01-04 17:23:03 +01:00

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xan2622 commented

2021-01-04 20:18:09 +01:00

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xan2622 commented

2021-01-09 12:58:27 +01:00

1 / 2 / 3 for changing into vertex/edge/face edit mode

I am in favor to get rid of the requirement to press TAB to switch between Object and Edit mode (present in the default "Blender" keymap preset) because it slows down the modeling workflow.

To bypass this annoyance, I tried the “Industry Standard keymap preset” but there are hotkeys that I don’t like either.

So I created my own keymap preset, mixing the two presets: this way, I keep most of the usual Blender hotkeys but to directly switch to Edit Vertex mode, Edit Edge mode, Edit Face, mode, I just have to press 1, 2 or 3.
I assigned 4 to Object mode. I finished my preset by assigning 5 to Sculpt mode, 6 to Vertex Paint mode, 7 to Weight Paint and 8 to Texture Paint.

Here is a screenshot of the hotkeys that I modified (click to enlarge the image):

Of course, I had to deactivate the “Hide Collection” hotkeys 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 (in 3DView > Object Mode > Object Mode (Global) ) otherwise they would have conflicted with the above hotkeys.

btw, as it happened for me, I am almost sure that other (new) Blender users got surprised to see their objects disappear in the viewport after pressing the 1, 2, 3 digit hotkeys (Hiding Collections instead of switching to Edit Vertex, Edit Edge, Edge Face modes). The keys "1, 2, 3" are currently too prone to confusion between Vertex, Edge, Face (in Edit mode) and Hide Collection 1, 2, 3 (in Object mode).

PS: As you can see, I haven’t removed the TAB hotkey to switch between Object and Edit modes (because, long time habits are sometimes difficult to get rid of. That being said, I now rarely use TAB anymore).
Directly pressing 1, 2, 3, 4 is much faster.

> 1 / 2 / 3 for changing into vertex/edge/face edit mode I am in favor to get rid of the requirement to press TAB to switch between Object and Edit mode (present in the default "Blender" keymap preset) because it slows down the modeling workflow. To bypass this annoyance, I tried the “Industry Standard keymap preset” but there are hotkeys that I don’t like either. So I created my own keymap preset, mixing the two presets: this way, I keep most of the usual Blender hotkeys but to directly switch to *Edit Vertex* mode, *Edit Edge* mode, *Edit Face*, mode, I just have to press 1, 2 or 3. I assigned 4 to Object mode. I finished my preset by assigning 5 to Sculpt mode, 6 to Vertex Paint mode, 7 to Weight Paint and 8 to Texture Paint. Here is a screenshot of the hotkeys that I modified (click to enlarge the image): ![fa40059ddc9b8b4eba4904f4a6f099066c00af5d.jpeg](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F9557054/fa40059ddc9b8b4eba4904f4a6f099066c00af5d.jpeg) Of course, I had to deactivate the “Hide Collection” hotkeys 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 (in `3DView` > `Object Mode` > `Object Mode (Global)` ) otherwise they would have conflicted with the above hotkeys. btw, as it happened for me, I am almost sure that other (new) Blender users got surprised to see their objects disappear in the viewport after pressing the 1, 2, 3 digit hotkeys (Hiding Collections instead of switching to Edit Vertex, Edit Edge, Edge Face modes). The keys "1, 2, 3" are currently too prone to confusion between Vertex, Edge, Face (in Edit mode) and Hide Collection 1, 2, 3 (in Object mode). PS: As you can see, I haven’t removed the TAB hotkey to switch between Object and Edit modes (because, long time habits are sometimes difficult to get rid of. That being said, I now rarely use TAB anymore). Directly pressing 1, 2, 3, 4 is much faster.

Paul Kotelevets commented

2021-01-21 22:35:46 +01:00

Added subscriber: @1D_Inc

Paul Kotelevets commented

2021-01-21 22:35:46 +01:00

In #84380#1090229, @xan2622 wrote:
Of course, I had to deactivate the “Hide Collection” hotkeys 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0

So you keeping breaking Multiref modeling workflow, which was corrupted in 2.8, but still available available in Blender.

The keys "1, 2, 3" are currently too prone to confusion between Vertex, Edge, Face (in Edit mode) and Hide Collection 1, 2, 3 (in Object mode).

Yes, because it was designed without taking into account complex modeling types, by requests from users that use software which do not contain solutions to complex modeling types such as Multiref modeling.
We made video to explain why 1/2/3 for switching verts/edges/faces in edit mode is wrong and breaks the ability to perform complex modeling work.
https://youtu.be/yiti0xWO7Wg?t=781

This is why Blender allow to perform hardest types of modeling work, unattainable in any other program.
The same issue about removing ctrl+0123 from subd in edit mode, which kills the best types of modeling available in blender - organic / automotive.
Please, stop doing that. Hitting tab is not even a problem in comparison to the Multiref modeling.

> In #84380#1090229, @xan2622 wrote: > Of course, I had to deactivate the “Hide Collection” hotkeys 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 So you keeping breaking Multiref modeling workflow, which was corrupted in 2.8, but still available available in Blender. > The keys "1, 2, 3" are currently too prone to confusion between Vertex, Edge, Face (in Edit mode) and Hide Collection 1, 2, 3 (in Object mode). Yes, because it was designed without taking into account complex modeling types, by requests from users that use software which do not contain solutions to complex modeling types such as Multiref modeling. We made video to explain why 1/2/3 for switching verts/edges/faces in edit mode is wrong and breaks the ability to perform complex modeling work. https://youtu.be/yiti0xWO7Wg?t=781 This is why Blender allow to perform hardest types of modeling work, unattainable in any other program. The same issue about removing ctrl+0123 from subd in edit mode, which kills the best types of modeling available in blender - organic / automotive. Please, stop doing that. Hitting tab is not even a problem in comparison to the Multiref modeling.

Gilberto Rodrigues commented

2021-01-22 05:16:31 +01:00

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Gilberto Rodrigues commented

2021-01-22 05:16:31 +01:00

@xan2622 I use a TAB pie menu for changing modes, it's very fast and doesn't take many keys that could be assigned for more useful stuff like toggling collections. I don't get why would you want to remove shortcuts that are useful for Object Mode and place Edit Mode shortcuts there. At first, collections toggling was a bit annoying, specially when I missclicked the numbers, but after I learned how it works and how useful it is, I grew very fond of it.

Alberto Velázquez commented

2021-01-22 09:30:45 +01:00

Added subscriber: @AlbertoVelazquez

Alberto Velázquez commented

2021-01-22 09:30:45 +01:00

It is normal that the "Hide Collection" keys are prone to error because we have been warning for two years about the total failure of the redesign that was done, which was completely broken ignoring all warnings. Thus destroying the greatest virtue of blender in fast modeling.

It has been two years since we warned that the workflow was being broken and that everything seemed to be aimed at making this feature unusable so that it could be used as an excuse in the future to remove it. I see that we got it right.

It is very simple to fix

first give some visual feedback. Actually nowhere does it explain what is going on and how the system works.
put all collections in group 1 by default.
Allow to place where the user wants to place each collection

It is normal that the "Hide Collection" keys are prone to error because we have been warning for two years about the total failure of the redesign that was done, which was completely broken ignoring all warnings. Thus destroying the greatest virtue of blender in fast modeling. It has been two years since we warned that the workflow was being broken and that everything seemed to be aimed at making this feature unusable so that it could be used as an excuse in the future to remove it. I see that we got it right. It is very simple to fix - first give some visual feedback. Actually nowhere does it explain what is going on and how the system works. - put all collections in group 1 by default. - Allow to place where the user wants to place each collection

fin commented

2021-01-22 11:13:39 +01:00

Added subscriber: @finirpar

fin commented

2021-01-22 11:13:39 +01:00

In modern era modeling stopped being prinitive vertex tweaking and face extruding.
Look at the modern modeling market.

AAA gamedev modeling? All about LODs, stated and variations.
Architectural modeling? All about handling multiple drawings such as plans, sections, elevations, etc.
Automotive, hardsurface, engines? All about handling base meshes, complex assemblies and their connections.
Any kind of restaurations? All about creating model from exact realworld references, such as images, pointclouds and photoscans which clutter the models.
Imported model cleanups? All about sorting and splitting model to several contexts, temporal by their nature, fixing and recombining them back.
Even characters modeling became so complex, that require splitting to several parts, such as body, cloth and accessories for obtaining quick navigation between them.

Modern modeling is about working with many references and a lot of temporal data, and Blender is the only software that has attempted to solve this complex problem, providing a quick access mechanism to meet the demands of modern market.

In modern era modeling stopped being prinitive vertex tweaking and face extruding. Look at the modern modeling market. - AAA gamedev modeling? All about LODs, stated and variations. - Architectural modeling? All about handling multiple drawings such as plans, sections, elevations, etc. - Automotive, hardsurface, engines? All about handling base meshes, complex assemblies and their connections. - Any kind of restaurations? All about creating model from exact realworld references, such as images, pointclouds and photoscans which clutter the models. - Imported model cleanups? All about sorting and splitting model to several contexts, temporal by their nature, fixing and recombining them back. - Even characters modeling became so complex, that require splitting to several parts, such as body, cloth and accessories for obtaining quick navigation between them. Modern modeling is about working with many references and a lot of temporal data, and Blender is the only software that has attempted to solve this complex problem, providing a quick access mechanism to meet the demands of modern market.

Andres Stephens commented

2021-01-27 22:31:29 +01:00

Added subscriber: @AndresStephens

Andres Stephens commented

2021-01-27 22:31:29 +01:00

I have been using 1,2,3,4,5,etc for direct mode switching, and object based modes like Armature pose and GP draw with SHIFT+2 - and directly jumping to modes quickly is very useful.

For edit context, XCV has proven very useful (removed X to delete)

Reason being, modes are a direct use case, but collection layers are not as used. Using a pie or a single toggle between two modes doesn't factor in all the modes and requires more muscle memory to use, but the number row is quick to directly cycle or target a mode.

I have been using 1,2,3,4,5,etc for direct mode switching, and object based modes like Armature pose and GP draw with SHIFT+2 - and directly jumping to modes quickly is very useful. For edit context, XCV has proven very useful (removed X to delete) Reason being, modes are a direct use case, but collection layers are not as used. Using a pie or a single toggle between two modes doesn't factor in all the modes and requires more muscle memory to use, but the number row is quick to directly cycle or target a mode.

Maged afra commented

2021-01-27 22:35:23 +01:00

Added subscriber: @Maged_Afra

Julian Eisel commented

2021-01-28 00:44:55 +01:00

This task is merely to collect discussion topics and possible to-do's, not to discuss the individual points. Let's please not do that here.

Paul Kotelevets commented

2021-01-28 01:09:19 +01:00

This comment was removed by @1D_Inc