UI: Inconsistencies across animation editors #89626

System Information
Operating system: Windows-10-10.0.19041-SP0 64 Bits
Graphics card: GeForce RTX 2060/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.5.0 NVIDIA 462.59

Blender Version
Broken: version: 3.0.0 Alpha, branch: soc-2021-vse-strip-thumbnails (modified), commit date: 2021-07-01 12:00, hash: caf2ee76c0
Worked: (newest version of Blender that worked as expected)

Short description of error
{F10210293,size=full}

Sidebars aren't same width.
Sync Visible Range doesn't take the width of sidebars into account, so with uneven width of sidebars the playhead position will be offset.
Graph Editor's playhead doesn't have a line, and no range indication.
The VSE has no channel header sidebar.
All other editors have no tool bars.
The timeline backgrund is different between sequencer and the rest of the editors, including the colors.
The VSE has an Overlay drop down, none of the rest of the animation editors have this.
Dope sheet highlights the entire channel, other editors don't.

Added subscriber: @tintwotin

Added subscriber: @lichtwerk

Graph Editor's playhead doesn't have a line, and no range indication.

That is the Drivers Editor, right? And that one actually should not have a line (at least not tied to time, see D12391: Fix Drivers Editor not hiding vertical part of cursor) and no scrubbing really since the X Axis is not time here (see D12392: Fix Drivers Editor showing playhead on the X Axis)

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Needs User Info'

The VSE has an Overlay drop down, none of the rest of the animation editors have this.

What should be in there? (there is nothing drawn as overlays in these editors)

The VSE has no channel header sidebar.

Dont get this one, you are seeing strips (not keyframes/clips)

The timeline backgrund is different between sequencer and the rest of the editors, including the colors.

So you would want to get rid of the alternating rows in the VSE?

Sync Visible Range doesn't take the width of sidebars into account, so with uneven width of sidebars the playhead position will be offset.

Interesting, could be an improvement [but this is really not a bug]

Dope sheet highlights the entire channel, other editors don't.

Graph Editor has no channels, Timeline would be too crowded I assume, VSE has no channels in that sense, NLA highlights its tracks (but of course they look a bit different)
Or is this solely about the Summary?

All other editors have no tool bars.

Also more of a TODO (rather than a bug)

Sidebars aren't same width.

This should be fixed I guess

In any case, will set to Needs Information from User to get above questions out of the way

The main point here is that the never-to-be-broken rule of consistency between editors - is broken all the time either for good reasons or for no reason at all - however in a situation where users wants something which will align the VSE with industry standards, but will break consistency it becomes a paramount thing to keep consistency: #89665

Question is how deep the ambition for consistency actually runs. Each and every time a new UI feature serving the 3D View editor is introduced, inconsistency is actually also introduced in all other editors, leaving no plans of implementation in any other editors, when leaving it "finished". I don't see anyone trying to keep consistency across the animation editors or remove the toolbars, the drag'n drop modifiers, the grease pencil, the track headers, the gimbals, the renamer, the python port of ui, the outliner, the filebrowser, the asset browser, or the new sheet editor, just because they're not in consistency with how they're working in all editors. That's pretty inconsistent handling of inconsistency... so how deep does the "consistency" thing actually run?

At some point, I think the BF devs should try to define what "consistency" means and when it should be enforced. Ex. it's pretty obvious that all editors will suffer, if they only can implement features already existing in the other editors. Just imagine the 3D View editor with only features from the Text Editor? Or if all editor workflows should work as if the editing takes place in the 3d space? Most of the time the discussion circles around if a new or changed element is in consistency or not, but never ever about, if it'll give the users the best(better) experience of using an editor/tool/setting, or how to deal with the "industry standard" expectation new users meet the editors of Blender with. In other words, I think it is time the BF address the mantra of "consistency" before it becomes just an unreflected and hollow knee-jerk reaction to everything new or changed.

The main point here is that the never-to-be-broken rule of consistency between editors - is broken all the time either for good reasons or for no reason at all - however in a situation where users wants something which will align the VSE with industry standards, but will break consistency it becomes a paramount thing to keep consistency: #89665 Question is how deep the ambition for consistency actually runs. Each and every time a new UI feature serving the 3D View editor is introduced, inconsistency is actually also introduced in all other editors, leaving no plans of implementation in any other editors, when leaving it "finished". I don't see anyone trying to keep consistency across the animation editors or remove the toolbars, the drag'n drop modifiers, the grease pencil, the track headers, the gimbals, the renamer, the python port of ui, the outliner, the filebrowser, the asset browser, or the new sheet editor, just because they're not in consistency with how they're working in all editors. That's pretty inconsistent handling of inconsistency... so how deep does the "consistency" thing actually run? At some point, I think the BF devs should try to define what "consistency" means and when it should be enforced. Ex. it's pretty obvious that all editors will suffer, if they only can implement features already existing in the other editors. Just imagine the 3D View editor with only features from the Text Editor? Or if all editor workflows should work as if the editing takes place in the 3d space? Most of the time the discussion circles around if a new or changed element is in consistency or not, but never ever about, if it'll give the users the best(better) experience of using an editor/tool/setting, or how to deal with the "industry standard" expectation new users meet the editors of Blender with. In other words, I think it is time the BF address the mantra of "consistency" before it becomes just an unreflected and hollow knee-jerk reaction to everything new or changed.

This is all true to some extend, thx for the input.

My main concern is to not drift into a meta-discussion and stick with actual, practical questions.
I tried to give my view of where consistency makes sense (and where it doesnt), what could be considered as a TODO or as a bug and had some very precise questions (and none of these were answered).
For until this entity of "consistency" is defined in all satisfactory ways, I think we have to decide on a case-by-case basis.
So while I can probably agree to everything you say, I can not derive any information in regards to how to proceed. After all we want to see actions and change the program in some ways, no?

Will stay on Needs Information from User until questions are answered.

I'm not the right one to answer those questions, since they're questions revolving around to what extend the BF devs wants to fulfill their rule of consistency across editors. Only they can answer that.

Why cant you answer a question like "What should be in a Overlay drop down (when there is nothing drawn as overlays in these editors)?"
After all, you have reported this as a bug.
Wouldnt you agree it makes little sense to have an empty dropdown just for the sake of consistency?

Look, my intention was to save at least these two as things that should (possibly) solved short-term:

Sidebars aren't same width
possibly coloring of the Summary row
possibly Sync Visible Range

But I would kindly ask for your filtering here as well, otherwise I am afraid I would have to close this as a multi-report

Thanks for the report. However to properly track issues we need them to be reported separately.
Please submit a new report for every individual bug.

Changed status from 'Needs User Info' to: 'Archived'

Thanks for the report. However to properly track issues we need them to be reported separately.

Please submit a new report for every individual bug.

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UI: Inconsistencies across animation editors #89626