Mixing sequencer and preview regions causes logical problems #92584
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Reference: blender/blender#92584
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With the addition of many editing operations to the sequencer preview,
there are an increasing number of logical problems with parts of the
UI that operate on the area, not the region.
Mainly menu items and the tool-system.
Note that this is only a problem with both are enabled at once.
To pick some examples:
If the code-base is left in it's current state I'm concerned users will run into glitches/bugs (finding the mixed preview/sequencer to be broken).
For the most part these won't be things that can be resolved in isolation, so I think it's worth considering a solution now.
Supporting Mixed Preview/Sequencer
Technical solutions for this are possible but impractical in my opinion, for example the operator_context could support multiple items:
For the sake of argument we could have 2x menu items for Delete, Select-All... etc.
Other options include introducing an "Active Region" concept or having a header for each region.
This amounts supporting functionality in separate regions that areas already handle.
Proposed Solutions
Note that I don't have a strong opinion on the exact solution,
only that it should not over complicate the current code-base
(unless we wish to support larger changes to Blender's windowing in general).
When mixing preview/sequencer:
Added subscribers: @ideasman42, @JulianEisel, @iss
Added subscriber: @Blendify
Added subscriber: @tintwotin
D12513
Added subscriber: @GeorgiaPacific
@tintwotin can you give some context for this link?
Agree, that this is a problem. Normally I would default on operation on strips to be done in timeline context unless specified explicitly. Mainly because it feels correct, I haven't thought about this too much.
Some opinions:
I definitely don't think that menu items should be doubled. Also not really excited about removing interactivity suport from preview region. Alternative solution could be having operation context like in 3D view - strip mode/preview mode, but I don't think this would be best way to resolve this (adds too much complexity, IMO unnecessarily).
Removing support for combined view sounds plausible. I think, that no other editor does this? However people are using this mode for various reasons, and removal of this combined view should address these. I am aware of 2 main benefits of combined view: It provides more screen space for elements - UI is more compact. Also side panel can be much taller displaying more of strip properties.
To comment further on removal of combined view:
It introduces also unusable screen area in preview section, which is normally occupied by file browser, unless you edit ultrawide content. or use 4:3 monitor.
I think that more screen space could be resolved by using region overlap. Main problem with using overlap is scrubbing area, I haven't figured out what would be best layout or if it's even possible to do it well.
Issue with side panels may be bit controversial, but this was suggested to me and I didn't disagree in principle, just it needs bit more thought - Move strip properties into properties editor. It already exist in default VSE template and occupies nearly same space used by VSE timeline side panel. Otherwise properties editor is nearly useless in VSE layout.
Here is layout I use for editing:
You can see that properties editor is very tiny, and to me it would be best if I could merge strip properties into it.
Agree, noted this to highlight that fixes for the current design are inelegant.
Right.
Moving strip properties into the properties editor seems like a good solution.
Although this feels late in the developer cycle to be making these kinds of changes.
Question then is what would be left in timeline side panel. There are still proxy settings which are part strip propery and part VSE editor property and tool settings. Cache too with dev extras, so it won't be empty...
Suggest to follow the 3D view:
Added subscriber: @fsiddi
Ok makes sense. So I can make patch for this, will tag @fsiddi too I would have him review this change anyway, so unless he disagree with this change I will do what I think is best, then we can tune details.
Added subscriber: @AndyCuccaro
I agree with removing the preview/sequencer view and keeping the individual ones. This follows more closely Blender's design.
I suggest to handle moving strip properties from the VSE to the properties editor in a separate conversation.
Removing Sequencer & Preview is fixing valuable things with a hammer? The only current problematic thing is that the menu select/copy/del etc. options can't serve both the preview and the sequencer area, if they're called by the same operator, but this can simply be fixed by adding simple macros for the Preview ones(I already did a patch with a solution to this) and in Sequencer & Preview expose the Select Sequencer options in one submenu and Select Image in a different submenu.
Removing the Sequencer & Preview view mode is effectively removing the Video Sequence Editor. And it is removing the options to have a well organized workspace with property sidebar limited to one area(because in S&P the properties are merged into one sidebar). This leaves the users with the option to have maximum sidebar height and maximum preview size like this:
{F11773091,size=full}
Or if the width of the Sequencer timeline should be maximum(which is a major priority in most NLEs), it could be done like this(bc. all properties are in one panel):
{F11773118,size=full}
How can a major change like this be pushed in Bcon3? Did you even ask the community & users about this?
Added subscriber: @muhuk
I don't use VSE too much. What little usage I have, the pre-configured workspace works just fine, sometimes I bring in
Graph Editorbut that's probably me not using it properly. Having said that I don't mind if the combined editor is removed.OTOH I agree with @tintwotin on two points:
3.1.Added subscriber: @Mr_SquarePeg
Hey - I really think the community should be consulted about this before removal of this tool. My 2 cents.
Added subscriber: @AndresStephens
Removing it is a bandaid solution to the code issues and doesn't address the UX if at all.
Adding conditionals to the operators that would not be relevant to the modes to hide and putting the conditional first to timeline could help avoid feature break - and do it per operator. Keeping it to give user options is a better UX practice.
Think of the users first, then think of the code.
And I agree Tin, this is Bcon3, this is a major feature change, and should be postponed with a better design proposal for 3.1.
Do not remove for the sake of minimization. Work the UI for a still customizable and optimal UX a bit more.
Removed subscriber: @fsiddi
The question how region specific operations and tools can be accessed in a multi-region context is not a code question, it's core UX design. So is the question if we want to have such split views in Blender.
Personally I'm in favor of using the Properties more for other editors than the 3D View. A dedicated tab for sequencer operations when a VSE is visible could work quite nicely. This in fact makes VSE workspaces more flexible than the current split view solution. Plus you can switch between tabs instead of keeping both a VSE sidebar & a Properties editor open.
(Generally, I think the idea of letting the Properties show only tabs relating to visible editors is worth investigating.)
In nutshell, the problem here is that the operator in the menu is executed based on the context(position) of the mouse cursor, so when in Sequencer & Preview the operators will always be executed as Preview operators if the menu is located over the preview.
The shortcuts are not a problem since they are executed in the correct contexts(mouse cursor position)
The sidebar is not a problem either. The mixing of Preview and Sequencer options does not result in any functional problems.
So as I see it, it is only a question of adding a context flag to the menu executed operators, so ex. Select > Preview > All will only select in the Preview and Select > All will select in the sequencer as usual. Before 3.0 the sequencer operators would always ex. select in the sequencer. If this was function was brought back, simple macros for the preview functions could be implemented as macros, as in my patch.
So basically I see two ways to potentially solve the context problems in the menus. Either as context flags on the operators in question, so operators executed from the menu in separated contexts or remove context sensitivity from the operators and add the double functions as macro operators, so they can be executed separately.
Moving vse properties into the Project Properties will narrow the needed property areas down to one in the VSE workspaces, but this doesn't solve the context menu problem. So this is a separate and imo unrelated discussion to context problems.
Just for the record, I don't think it is suggested here, that combined view should be removed in 3.0. As I said in earlier comment I think, that there are concerns that should be addressed with removal, or at least have a plan to mitigate them. My impression was that there are some issues in 3.0, but question is how to avoid more issues like these in future when we would like more operators to be context sensitive.
In different context I was thinking about having dropdown menu for how selection would work in preview - this is useful if you want to use transform tools on whole scene composition. But it should apply to other operators too, so this could be technically used for combined view too. Not sure if this would be reasonable alternative to just disabling interactivity in 3.0 as in both cases there is not a single place where change has to be done. Also then we wouldn't have to rush removal of combined view if there are impacts on workflow.