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NLA tracks become zombies (can't be killed nor edited) if you append data from a file where these Tracks were overides on a linked armature. #109483

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opened 2023-06-29 06:38:35 +02:00 by LOIC BRAMOULLE · 10 comments
LOIC BRAMOULLE commented 2023-06-29 06:38:35 +02:00
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System Information
Operating system: Windows-10-10.0.19043-SP0 64 Bits
Graphics card: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.5.0 NVIDIA 531.79

Blender Version
Broken: version: 3.5.1, branch: blender-v3.5-release, commit date: 2023-04-24 18:11, hash: e1ccd9d4a1d3
Worked: (newest version of Blender that worked as expected)

Steps:

  1. have a file where a character is imported as linked, (link its collection) create library overide of content (classic way of animating a character in production, not having it locally in your anim scene)
  2. Add NLA tracks to animate it, e.g. a walk action, another track to control the root/position in world ect...
  3. In a second blender file, append this (scene or collection ect..) the character is still linked, the NLA tracks considered library overides, but they are "zombies", you can't delete them, you can't edit them, the clips inside refuse to slide to other tracks, if you duplicate the clips, they get sent to a new NLA track, and cannot slide to these zombie tracks.

The only option is to un-tick these tracks, lock them, and hope to not get confused later if you or someone else open the file. This is not a show stopper then, as you can duplicate linked all these clips, which just restores your animation cut.

**System Information** Operating system: Windows-10-10.0.19043-SP0 64 Bits Graphics card: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.5.0 NVIDIA 531.79 **Blender Version** Broken: version: 3.5.1, branch: blender-v3.5-release, commit date: 2023-04-24 18:11, hash: `e1ccd9d4a1d3` Worked: (newest version of Blender that worked as expected) **Steps:** 1. have a file where a character is imported as linked, (link its collection) create library overide of content (classic way of animating a character in production, not having it locally in your anim scene) 2. Add NLA tracks to animate it, e.g. a walk action, another track to control the root/position in world ect... 3. In a second blender file, append this (scene or collection ect..) the character is still linked, the NLA tracks considered library overides, but they are "zombies", you can't delete them, you can't edit them, the clips inside refuse to slide to other tracks, if you duplicate the clips, they get sent to a new NLA track, and cannot slide to these zombie tracks. The only option is to un-tick these tracks, lock them, and hope to not get confused later if you or someone else open the file. This is not a show stopper then, as you can duplicate linked all these clips, which just restores your animation cut.
LOIC BRAMOULLE added the
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Germano Cavalcante commented 2023-06-30 00:32:57 +02:00
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Thanks for the report, but I can't replicate the issue.
These were the steps I followed when trying to replicate what was described in the report.

  • Download attached .blend files in the same directory or:
    • make a file with a single character. (You can call it "my_character.blend")
    • make another file. (You can call it "my_actions.blend")
    • in this other file link the character created through its collection.
    • create library override of Content
    • Add NLA tracks to animate it, (e.g. a jump action and another track to control the root/position in world ect...)
  • Open a third blender file
  • Append the collection (or scene ect..) from the "my_actions.blend"
Thanks for the report, but I can't replicate the issue. These were the steps I followed when trying to replicate what was described in the report. - Download attached .blend files in the same directory or: - make a file with a single character. (You can call it "my_character.blend") - make another file. (You can call it "my_actions.blend") - in this other file link the character created through its collection. - create library override of `Content` - Add NLA tracks to animate it, (e.g. a jump action and another track to control the root/position in world ect...) - Open a third blender file - Append the collection (or scene ect..) from the "my_actions.blend"
my_character.blend
869 KiB
my_actions.blend
858 KiB
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 labels 2023-06-30 00:33:07 +02:00
LOIC BRAMOULLE commented 2023-06-30 00:55:53 +02:00
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Hi, thanks for having a look at this. That's so strange, I had the issue happening twice, had to delete all overides and start over the first time, now just rolling with it all un-ticked.
I just tried appending from a different scene on the same project, and the same exact issue happens.

I now just tried with your two files, appending from the action one, and the issue does happen too on my end. The Nla Tracks (that are not linked, but local overides, don't exist anywhere else, the original action file can be deleted, they stay there locally) these Nla tracks are "zombies" can't communicate/slide their clips into other newly added tracks, can't be deleted ect...
I tried in 3.5 and 3.6.
That's so strange it happens only on my end.

Hi, thanks for having a look at this. That's so strange, I had the issue happening twice, had to delete all overides and start over the first time, now just rolling with it all un-ticked. I just tried appending from a different scene on the same project, and the same exact issue happens. I now just tried with your two files, appending from the action one, and the issue does happen too on my end. The Nla Tracks (that are not linked, but local overides, don't exist anywhere else, the original action file can be deleted, they stay there locally) these Nla tracks are "zombies" can't communicate/slide their clips into other newly added tracks, can't be deleted ect... I tried in 3.5 and 3.6. That's so strange it happens only on my end.
Germano Cavalcante commented 2023-06-30 02:11:04 +02:00
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Hmm, I could reproduced this bug in the latest official release, but not the latest daily build, so it appears the bug has been fixed already.

Please try the latest daily build: https://builder.blender.org/download/

I'm confirming anyway since 3.6 is LTS.

Hmm, I could reproduced this bug in the latest official release, but not the latest daily build, so it appears the bug has been fixed already. Please try the latest daily build: https://builder.blender.org/download/ I'm confirming anyway since 3.6 is LTS.
LOIC BRAMOULLE commented 2023-06-30 02:47:39 +02:00
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Aah thanks a lot for yout time ! will have a look if I can double confirm.
Ah, in today's 3.6 build I still have the bug, fresh scene, append the collection with the linked character, the appended Nla tracks can't be edited or deleted (only sliding their clip, no new clip or exchanging clips with other tracks.)

Aah thanks a lot for yout time ! will have a look if I can double confirm. Ah, in today's 3.6 build I still have the bug, fresh scene, append the collection with the linked character, the appended Nla tracks can't be edited or deleted (only sliding their clip, no new clip or exchanging clips with other tracks.)
Brad Clark commented 2023-06-30 18:57:21 +02:00
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I see some NLA notes here I missed before :)

Will work and try it and see what is going on but that seems right in that if the NLA information existed before it was linked that the library override wouldn't be able to delete it. The NLA is old and cranky and doesn't always play with linking in a nice way sometimes.

I see some NLA notes here I missed before :) Will work and try it and see what is going on but that seems right in that if the NLA information existed before it was linked that the library override wouldn't be able to delete it. The NLA is old and cranky and doesn't always play with linking in a nice way sometimes.
LOIC BRAMOULLE commented 2023-06-30 21:38:30 +02:00
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Hi Brad & thanks !
Just a precision but in this case the Nla tracks are appended and not linked. But yes I "felt" that blender behaves like if these tracks were considered linked, although they don't exist anywhere else.

I was wondering if the correct way to pipe character animation in a small blender production would be to localize the armature object, so that it can recieve actions/keyframes/clips, but without overide, while all meshes & the armature data under it would stay linked without lib overide. might try this to see if I can avoid these issues.

Basically it's because of another nasty bug with linked character (that I reported, was confirmed, but had variants of it again now later on the project) it's because of that other bug that I had to append all my work on a linked character, which creates this current bug of Nla tracks in Limbo.

I need to keep working on the character in parallel so not sure how other people manage character animation.

Hi Brad & thanks ! Just a precision but in this case the Nla tracks are appended and not linked. But yes I "felt" that blender behaves like if these tracks were considered linked, although they don't exist anywhere else. I was wondering if the correct way to pipe character animation in a small blender production would be to localize the armature object, so that it can recieve actions/keyframes/clips, but without overide, while all meshes & the armature data under it would stay linked without lib overide. might try this to see if I can avoid these issues. Basically it's because of another nasty bug with linked character (that I reported, was confirmed, but had variants of it again now later on the project) it's because of that other bug that I had to append all my work on a linked character, which creates this current bug of Nla tracks in Limbo. I need to keep working on the character in parallel so not sure how other people manage character animation.
Brad Clark commented 2023-07-01 01:38:24 +02:00
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I see, during the appending of the source animated file that includes the linked/overridden character, something in the Append happens that the NLA data created acts as if it was linked and can't be edited, even though that was created in an override AND if you open that source file instead of appending, you can still edit/delete the NLA data.

I can re-create and confirm at least that it seems like an unexpected result that Appending it would make it not work while just opening it does.

source file -> Linked file [animation actions and NLA tracks/strips created] +++> appended to New File [ NLA data now acts linked ]

I see, during the appending of the source animated file that includes the linked/overridden character, something in the Append happens that the NLA data created acts as if it was linked and can't be edited, even though that was created in an override AND if you open that source file instead of appending, you can still edit/delete the NLA data. I can re-create and confirm at least that it seems like an unexpected result that Appending it would make it not work while just opening it does. source file -> Linked file [animation actions and NLA tracks/strips created] +++> appended to New File [ NLA data now acts linked ]
LOIC BRAMOULLE commented 2023-07-07 01:50:12 +02:00
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Ok one way of getting rid of that behaviour is to localize the armature object (coordinates ect..) so that any anim data assicated with it (nla tracks, actions ect..) are localized too (well they were already local but now blender believes it), they can get deleted or edited normally. And the rest of the character (armature/bones/rig, meshes ect..) is still linked.
So might be a cleaner method overall in blender to always localize the armature object instead of doing library overides.

Ok one way of getting rid of that behaviour is to localize the armature object (coordinates ect..) so that any anim data assicated with it (nla tracks, actions ect..) are localized too (well they were already local but now blender believes it), they can get deleted or edited normally. And the rest of the character (armature/bones/rig, meshes ect..) is still linked. So might be a cleaner method overall in blender to always localize the armature object instead of doing library overides.
Sybren A. Stüvel commented 2024-04-15 11:06:01 +02:00
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Given the discussion so far, and that this was apparently not trivial to reproduce, could someone edit the report and attach some example files?

Given the discussion so far, and that this was apparently not trivial to reproduce, could someone edit the report and attach some example files?
Sybren A. Stüvel commented 2024-04-22 12:55:29 +02:00
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  1. have a file where a character is imported as linked, (link its collection) create library overide of content (classic way of animating a character in production, not having it locally in your anim scene)
  2. Add NLA tracks to animate it, e.g. a walk action, another track to control the root/position in world ect...
  3. In a second blender file, append this (scene or collection ect..) the character is still linked, the NLA tracks considered library overides, but they are "zombies", you can't delete them, you can't edit them, the clips inside refuse to slide to other tracks, if you duplicate the clips, they get sent to a new NLA track, and cannot slide to these zombie tracks.

I'm wondering about this part:

NLA tracks considered library overides

How do you know? Since you don't describe adding a library override, I'd be surprised if Blender actually thinks this is an override. What you describe seems to be the behaviour of regular linked data.

> 1. have a file where a character is imported as linked, (link its collection) create library overide of content (classic way of animating a character in production, not having it locally in your anim scene) > 2. Add NLA tracks to animate it, e.g. a walk action, another track to control the root/position in world ect... > 3. In a second blender file, append this (scene or collection ect..) the character is still linked, the NLA tracks considered library overides, but they are "zombies", you can't delete them, you can't edit them, the clips inside refuse to slide to other tracks, if you duplicate the clips, they get sent to a new NLA track, and cannot slide to these zombie tracks. I'm wondering about this part: > NLA tracks considered library overides How do you know? Since you don't describe adding a library override, I'd be surprised if Blender actually thinks this is an override. What you describe seems to be the behaviour of regular linked data.
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