Drivers of sub-ID properties do not get removed along with the sub-ID #110650

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opened 2023-07-31 12:46:04 +02:00 by Demeter Dzadik · 5 comments

Demeter Dzadik commented

2023-07-31 12:46:04 +02:00

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By "Sub-ID" I mean things like Modifiers, Constraints (bone & object), custom properties, shape keys, bones, VSE strips, etc. Not sure how to get a complete list of these types of things.

When one of these things, such as a modifier, is removed, drivers on its driven properties are not removed. This makes it easy to leave behind broken drivers that now target nothing. These can be cleared up in the Driver Editor UI fairly easily, but the fact that we must do so is annoying. Experienced users end up learning that you can't just remove a modifier or constraint without removing its drivers first - Just to save you a trip to the Driver Editor.

Forgetfulness in this habit results in console warnings, which in a production environment trickle down from assets to shot files, and contribute to the users' sense of "console warnings aren't important, I will ignore them".

I always thought this was a known issue but @Sergey told me it's fixable and that I should make a report. Here ya go!

This would be a really, really welcome improvement for the studio and probably the whole world.

By "Sub-ID" I mean things like Modifiers, Constraints (bone & object), custom properties, shape keys, bones, VSE strips, etc. Not sure how to get a complete list of these types of things. When one of these things, such as a modifier, is removed, drivers on its driven properties are not removed. This makes it easy to leave behind broken drivers that now target nothing. These can be cleared up in the Driver Editor UI fairly easily, but the fact that we must do so is annoying. Experienced users end up learning that you can't just remove a modifier or constraint without removing its drivers first - Just to save you a trip to the Driver Editor. Forgetfulness in this habit results in console warnings, which in a production environment trickle down from assets to shot files, and contribute to the users' sense of "console warnings aren't important, I will ignore them". I always thought this was a known issue but @Sergey told me it's fixable and that I should make a report. Here ya go! This would be a really, really welcome improvement for the studio and probably the whole world.

Demeter Dzadik added the

labels 2023-07-31 12:46:05 +02:00

YimingWu added

Animation & Rigging

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labels 2023-07-31 14:36:46 +02:00

Philipp Oeser commented

2023-08-07 10:19:52 +02:00

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Just noting that usually reports like this one were closed in the past.

Not saying that things change (as-in what is considered a bug and what is not), but for reference (from e.g. #89679):

I can confirm, the persistence of animation data is by design. Might be considered a bit of a sloppy design with some downsides (corroborated by many "invalid driver" warnings on the console whenever you open a Blender Animation Studio anim file), but it also has upsides. Not losing animation data is one, and the ability to swap out "animated things" with other "things".

I think @dr.sybren would also need to comment here

@ChengduLittleA : not sure why this was put on the Modeling module table?

Just noting that usually reports like this one were closed in the past. Not saying that things change (as-in what is considered a bug and what is not), but for reference (from e.g. #89679): > I can confirm, the persistence of animation data is by design. Might be considered a bit of a sloppy design with some downsides (corroborated by many "invalid driver" warnings on the console whenever you open a Blender Animation Studio anim file), but it also has upsides. Not losing animation data is one, and the ability to swap out "animated things" with other "things". I think @dr.sybren would also need to comment here @ChengduLittleA : not sure why this was put on the `Modeling` module table?

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labels 2023-08-07 10:20:43 +02:00

YimingWu commented

2023-08-07 10:27:11 +02:00

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@lichtwerk ehhh not sure... Cause I don't think any of them fit. I probably think constraint is a kind of structural property of the movement system 😅 thanks for correcting

@lichtwerk ehhh not sure... Cause I don't think any of them fit. I probably think constraint is a kind of structural property of the movement system 😅 thanks for correcting

Sergey Sharybin commented

2023-08-21 11:18:32 +02:00

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I am not sure why this behavior is considered to be "by design". Is this aspect of the design explained somewhere? We do such f-curve removal for motion tracking tracks and sequencer strips, for example.
If a design is such that removal of such data should preserve f-curves, then those cases are to be changed (although, it will mean quite serious usability regression, in my opinion).
If the design allows such f-curvs to be removed, then I do not see an issue of covering more cases which leave f-curve data behind.

To me it seems like a bug on user-level. It is a bit annoying to get solved on a code side (since such operations are not really centralized), and might not be top-of-the-priority list due to the on-going animation data re-resign, but a bug nevertheless.

I am not sure why this behavior is considered to be "by design". Is this aspect of the design explained somewhere? We do such f-curve removal for motion tracking tracks and sequencer strips, for example. If a design is such that removal of such data should preserve f-curves, then those cases are to be changed (although, it will mean quite serious usability regression, in my opinion). If the design allows such f-curvs to be removed, then I do not see an issue of covering more cases which leave f-curve data behind. To me it seems like a bug on user-level. It is a bit annoying to get solved on a code side (since such operations are not really centralized), and might not be top-of-the-priority list due to the on-going animation data re-resign, but a bug nevertheless.

Sybren A. Stüvel commented

2023-10-16 12:49:42 +02:00

Member

I am not sure why this behavior is considered to be "by design".

I wish I had written down where I found the relevant code :/ and I can't find anything in the code that says "do not delete drivers here because X".

Bug or not, I do feel that this driver situation is a mess, and it would be good to clean that up.

> I am not sure why this behavior is considered to be "by design". I wish I had written down where I found the relevant code :/ and I can't find anything in the code that says "do not delete drivers here because X". Bug or not, I do feel that this driver situation is a mess, and it would be good to clean that up.

Sybren A. Stüvel commented

2023-10-19 12:21:59 +02:00

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This was discussed in the last animation & rigging module meeting, and it was decided to indeed address this issue.

This was discussed in the [last animation & rigging module meeting](https://devtalk.blender.org/t/2023-10-17-animation-rigging/31647), and it was decided to indeed address this issue.

Sybren A. Stüvel added

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labels 2023-10-19 12:22:16 +02:00

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