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Cycles: motion blur on native fluid simulation #117104

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opened 2024-01-14 00:29:50 +01:00 by Petko Ganev · 8 comments
Petko Ganev commented 2024-01-14 00:29:50 +01:00
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System Information
Operating system: Windows-10-10.0.19045-SP0 64 Bits
Graphics card: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.6.0 NVIDIA 546.01

Blender Version
Broken: version: 4.0.1, branch: blender-v4.0-release, commit date: 2023-11-16 16:40, hash: d0dd92834a08
Worked: NA

Short description of error
Missing motion blur on baked fluid object:

  1. I've baked a fluid sim of a simple waterfall(native fluid solver).
  2. I've checked speed vectors in the mesh tab(physics column), which If I understand correctly should be transferring velocity data from the particles to the mesh vertices.
  3. I've unchecked deformation blur in the object settings of the domain, because I'm dealing with geo that's changing in poly count.
  4. I've checked MB in cycles tab.

Exact steps for others to reproduce the error

  1. Create a domain object for liquids.
  2. Create a flow object.
  3. Select the domain -> in physics tab, under liquid check mesh and use speed vectors.
  4. Same tab, under cache, in format volumes select uni cache (not sure about this one, I was advised that it should be able to write velocity data, but I doubt it, because it's a volume format and we're not dealing with a volume here, however, vdb doesn't work either).
  5. Select the domain -> in object tab, under motion blur, uncheck deformation.
  6. Bake a few frames.
  7. Render image and pull your hair out, because of missing motion blur. :D
**System Information** Operating system: Windows-10-10.0.19045-SP0 64 Bits Graphics card: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 SUPER/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.6.0 NVIDIA 546.01 **Blender Version** Broken: version: 4.0.1, branch: blender-v4.0-release, commit date: 2023-11-16 16:40, hash: `d0dd92834a08` Worked: NA **Short description of error** Missing motion blur on baked fluid object: 1. I've baked a fluid sim of a simple waterfall(native fluid solver). 2. I've checked `speed vectors` in the mesh tab(physics column), which If I understand correctly should be transferring velocity data from the particles to the mesh vertices. 3. I've unchecked `deformation blur` in the object settings of the domain, because I'm dealing with geo that's changing in poly count. 4. I've checked MB in cycles tab. **Exact steps for others to reproduce the error** 1. Create a domain object for liquids. 2. Create a flow object. 3. Select the domain -> in `physics` tab, under `liquid` check `mesh` and `use speed vectors`. 4. Same tab, under `cache`, in `format volumes` select `uni cache` (not sure about this one, I was advised that it should be able to write velocity data, but I doubt it, because it's a `volume format` and we're not dealing with a volume here, however, vdb doesn't work either). 5. Select the domain -> in `object` tab, under `motion blur`, uncheck `deformation`. 6. Bake a few frames. 7. Render image and pull your hair out, because of missing motion blur. :D
cycles-missing-MB-on-native-fluid-liquid-sim.blend
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 labels 2024-01-14 00:29:51 +01:00
Pratik Borhade commented 2024-01-15 06:49:14 +01:00
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Thanks for the report. Can confirm the missing motion blur. Guess in your case (provided file) you can keep the deformation enabled.
Mantaflow has no active developer right now so I'm marking this as known issue.

Thanks for the report. Can confirm the missing motion blur. Guess in your case (provided file) you can keep the `deformation` enabled. Mantaflow has no active developer right now so I'm marking this as known issue.
Pratik Borhade changed title from can't get cycles to render motion blur on native fluid simulation to Cycles: motion blur on native fluid simulation 2024-01-15 06:49:46 +01:00
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 label 2024-01-15 07:05:37 +01:00
Philipp Oeser commented 2024-01-15 10:21:11 +01:00
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To my knowledge, deformation motion blur is required to render motionblur with simulations (with or without changing poly count), disabling that only renders object motion blur (and after all, the object itself does not move at all).

I've unchecked deformation blur in the object settings of the domain, because I'm dealing with geo that's changing in poly count.

@McTwark : what makes you think you would have to disable (instead of enable) deformation motion blur in that case?

To my knowledge, deformation motion blur is required to render motionblur with simulations (with or without changing poly count), disabling that only renders object motion blur (and after all, the object itself does not move at all). >I've unchecked deformation blur in the object settings of the domain, because I'm dealing with geo that's changing in poly count. @McTwark : what makes you think you would have to **disable** (instead of **enable**) deformation motion blur in that case?
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Philipp Oeser commented 2024-01-15 10:26:29 +01:00
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@Blendify : https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/4.1/physics/fluid/type/domain/liquid/mesh.html is also a bit outdated, it still mentiones "They (speed vectors) can be used to compute image-based motion blur with the compositing nodes".

Nowadays, we can render MB directly (no need to use the compositor).
But could/should mention that deformation MB is required here.

@Blendify : https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/4.1/physics/fluid/type/domain/liquid/mesh.html is also a bit outdated, it still mentiones "They (speed vectors) can be used to compute image-based motion blur with the compositing nodes". Nowadays, we can render MB directly (no need to use the compositor). But could/should mention that deformation MB is required here.
Petko Ganev commented 2024-01-15 12:04:40 +01:00
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To my knowledge, deformation motion blur is required to render motionblur with simulations (with or without changing poly count), disabling that only renders object motion blur (and after all, the object itself does not move at all).

I've unchecked deformation blur in the object settings of the domain, because I'm dealing with geo that's changing in poly count.

@McTwark : what makes you think you would have to disable (instead of enable) deformation motion blur in that case?

@lichtwerk I thought that 'deformation blur' makes the renderer track the location of each vertex by id(basically how each vert is transforming), and when you have changing polycount(which is always the case when meshing moving points), the id would also be different each frame which would 'confuse' the renderer which vert is where. I tried illustrating it in the attached files, if that helps(the verts are not moving much, but when a vert disappears, the renderer receives wrong information about the location of each vert based on id and we get the long streaks of mb). So based on that understanding(which may be wrong, of course, but I'm working off of houdini logic), I thought that when I disable 'deformation blur' the renderer looks at the 'velocity' attribute stored on vertices and bases the motion blur on that.

As I'm writing this I'm getting more confused, because I realize there's no way to have more than 1 MB 'step' if there's no 'invariable' id that's based on how many points there were from the start of the sim, instead of a 'changing' id which is based on current frame point count.In houdini, all those 'id' attributes are very much clear when looking at the spreadsheet, but blender's spreadsheet only displays @P and @velocity.

Anyway, even with 'disabled' deformation the mb is missing, right? I'd like to have a better grasp on things, so I'd appreciate an explanation where my understanding is crappy.

> To my knowledge, deformation motion blur is required to render motionblur with simulations (with or without changing poly count), disabling that only renders object motion blur (and after all, the object itself does not move at all). > > >I've unchecked deformation blur in the object settings of the domain, because I'm dealing with geo that's changing in poly count. > > @McTwark : what makes you think you would have to **disable** (instead of **enable**) deformation motion blur in that case? @lichtwerk I thought that 'deformation blur' makes the renderer track the location of each vertex by id(basically how each vert is transforming), and when you have changing polycount(which is always the case when meshing moving points), the id would also be different each frame which would 'confuse' the renderer which vert is where. I tried illustrating it in the attached files, if that helps(the verts are not moving much, but when a vert disappears, the renderer receives wrong information about the location of each vert based on id and we get the long streaks of mb). So based on that understanding(which may be wrong, of course, but I'm working off of houdini logic), I thought that when I disable 'deformation blur' the renderer looks at the 'velocity' attribute stored on vertices and bases the motion blur on that. As I'm writing this I'm getting more confused, because I realize there's no way to have more than 1 MB 'step' if there's no 'invariable' id that's based on how many points there were from the start of the sim, instead of a 'changing' id which is based on current frame point count.In houdini, all those 'id' attributes are very much clear when looking at the spreadsheet, but blender's spreadsheet only displays @P and @velocity. Anyway, even with 'disabled' deformation the mb is missing, right? I'd like to have a better grasp on things, so I'd appreciate an explanation where my understanding is crappy.
0001-0010.mkv
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broken-deformation-blur.blend
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Philipp Oeser commented 2024-01-15 13:39:49 +01:00
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For Fluid sims, a "velocity" attribute is generated/exported that is "correct" for the frame that is being rendered [you can also generate this "by hand" in GN if you like], so the renderer doesnt really have to figure motion out based on point ID/position (see 128eb6cbe9).
If no such velocity attribute exists, the renderer usually disables deformation blur if it detects changing topology/polycount.
If I am not mistaken, Cycles only ever looks at the "external" velocity attribute (from sims, alembic, USD or "handmade" in geometry nodes etc) when deformation motion blur is enabled, if it disabled, then it just means "just object motion blur".

Your example file is a bit different in the sense that it uses instances on points.
If you only render the mesh without deformation motion blur, you get no motion blur at all (only the mesh has motion, not the object).
When instancing on these points, apparently the motion of the points gets transferred into the object transform of each instance which then works even if deformation MB is disabled. However, in the case of changing pointcount, this does what you describe (fails, long streaks etc.). @brecht : not sure this is a bug? Shouldnt the same motion exist for the underlying point and "its" instance?

I realize there's no way to have more than 1 MB 'step'...

I think this is because the velocity attribute is only "available" once for every frame (see recent # #116792 / bcfb2e4a83). Maybe there are tricks to actually export/use more steps per frame when simulating liquid, havent checked in detail here yet.

In houdini, all those 'id' attributes are very much clear when looking at the spreadsheet, but blender's spreadsheet only displays @P and @velocity

Not sure if I understand this correctly, afaik, there is no 'invariable' id concept in blender for (fluid) simulations, maybe you can elaborate how this looks like and why it is useful.

Anyway, even with 'disabled' deformation the mb is missing, right?

Not sure I understand this either. Is this comment meant for broken-deformation-blur.blend? Or for cycles-missing-MB-on-native-fluid-liquid-sim.blend ?

For Fluid sims, a "velocity" attribute is generated/exported that is "correct" for the frame that is being rendered [you can also generate this "by hand" in GN if you like], so the renderer doesnt really have to figure motion out based on point ID/position (see 128eb6cbe928e58dfee1c64f340fd8d663134c26). If no such velocity attribute exists, the renderer usually disables deformation blur if it detects changing topology/polycount. If I am not mistaken, Cycles only ever looks at the "external" `velocity` attribute (from sims, alembic, USD or "handmade" in geometry nodes etc) when deformation motion blur is enabled, if it disabled, then it just means "just object motion blur". Your example file is a bit different in the sense that it uses instances on points. If you only render the mesh without deformation motion blur, you get no motion blur at all (only the mesh has motion, not the object). When instancing on these points, apparently the motion of the points gets transferred into the object transform of each instance which then works even if deformation MB is disabled. However, in the case of changing pointcount, this does what you describe (fails, long streaks etc.). @brecht : not sure this is a bug? Shouldnt the same motion exist for the underlying point and "its" instance? >I realize there's no way to have more than 1 MB 'step'... I think this is because the velocity attribute is only "available" once for every frame (see recent # #116792 / bcfb2e4a8319037631e50f964a5a548e255c6cc3). Maybe there are tricks to actually export/use more steps per frame when simulating liquid, havent checked in detail here yet. >In houdini, all those 'id' attributes are very much clear when looking at the spreadsheet, but blender's spreadsheet only displays @P and @velocity Not sure if I understand this correctly, afaik, there is no 'invariable' id concept in blender for (fluid) simulations, maybe you can elaborate how this looks like and why it is useful. >Anyway, even with 'disabled' deformation the mb is missing, right? Not sure I understand this either. Is this comment meant for `broken-deformation-blur.blend`? Or for `cycles-missing-MB-on-native-fluid-liquid-sim.blend` ?
Petko Ganev commented 2024-01-16 08:47:25 +01:00
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For Fluid sims, a "velocity" attribute is generated/exported that is "correct" for the frame that is being rendered [you can also generate this "by hand" in GN if you like], so the renderer doesnt really have to figure motion out based on point ID/position (see 128eb6cbe9).
If no such velocity attribute exists, the renderer usually disables deformation blur if it detects changing topology/polycount.
If I am not mistaken, Cycles only ever looks at the "external" velocity attribute (from sims, alembic, USD or "handmade" in geometry nodes etc) when deformation motion blur is enabled, if it disabled, then it just means "just object motion blur".
Your example file is a bit different in the sense that it uses instances on points.
If you only render the mesh without deformation motion blur, you get no motion blur at all (only the mesh has motion, not the object).
When instancing on these points, apparently the motion of the points gets transferred into the object transform of each instance which then works even if deformation MB is disabled. However, in the case of changing pointcount, this does what you describe (fails, long streaks etc.).

Thanks for taking the time to explain, I think I got it. My confusion comes from that same concepts are named differently in different dccs. In houdini, you have 'transform' mb, which is the 'object' mb in blender. Then you have 'geometry' motion blur, which is 'deformation' mb in blender, and then you have 'velocity' blur which is based on attributes stored on points.

Not sure I understand this either. Is this comment meant for broken-deformation-blur.blend? Or for cycles-missing-MB-on-native-fluid-liquid-sim.blend ?

It was meant for 'cycles-missing-MB-on-native-fluid-liquid-sim.blend', but O my god...It actually works when I enable 'deformation blur' I don't know how I missed that, I thought I tested it, I feel ashamed, sorry... It works only with 1 MB 'step' though, >1 and it crashes on render.

Not sure if I understand this correctly, afaik, there is no 'invariable' id concept in blender for (fluid) simulations, maybe you can elaborate how this looks like and why it is useful.

hmm, I can only explain the workflow in houdini, if that would be helpful. So in the houdini's flip solver, you have the option to add a unique id to each particle (1st attached image), which you can then use to add whatever attributes consistently, even if the point count changes, when matching that 'id' each frame.(the workflow is to add attributes on the points, which then get transferred on the geometry in the meshing stage). In houdini, to get a 'curved' motion blur, the renderer (both mantra and karma) looks for an 'accel' attribute. Acceleration is the changing of velocity, so '(v - prev_v) / timeinc'. So when you supply that 'accel' attribute and have more than 2 'geometry' samples (2 'geometry' samples in houdini is 1 mb 'step' in blender, if I understand correctly), you get curved mb, on geometries with changing polycounts. (2nd attached image is 2 samples, 3rd attached is 4 samples)

Again, thanks for taking the time to explain things!

> For Fluid sims, a "velocity" attribute is generated/exported that is "correct" for the frame that is being rendered [you can also generate this "by hand" in GN if you like], so the renderer doesnt really have to figure motion out based on point ID/position (see 128eb6cbe9). If no such velocity attribute exists, the renderer usually disables deformation blur if it detects changing topology/polycount. If I am not mistaken, Cycles only ever looks at the "external" velocity attribute (from sims, alembic, USD or "handmade" in geometry nodes etc) when deformation motion blur is enabled, if it disabled, then it just means "just object motion blur". Your example file is a bit different in the sense that it uses instances on points. If you only render the mesh without deformation motion blur, you get no motion blur at all (only the mesh has motion, not the object). When instancing on these points, apparently the motion of the points gets transferred into the object transform of each instance which then works even if deformation MB is disabled. However, in the case of changing pointcount, this does what you describe (fails, long streaks etc.). Thanks for taking the time to explain, I think I got it. My confusion comes from that same concepts are named differently in different dccs. In houdini, you have 'transform' mb, which is the 'object' mb in blender. Then you have 'geometry' motion blur, which is 'deformation' mb in blender, and then you have 'velocity' blur which is based on attributes stored on points. > Not sure I understand this either. Is this comment meant for broken-deformation-blur.blend? Or for cycles-missing-MB-on-native-fluid-liquid-sim.blend ? It was meant for 'cycles-missing-MB-on-native-fluid-liquid-sim.blend', but O my god...It actually works when I enable 'deformation blur' I don't know how I missed that, I thought I tested it, I feel ashamed, sorry... It works only with 1 MB 'step' though, >1 and it crashes on render. > Not sure if I understand this correctly, afaik, there is no 'invariable' id concept in blender for (fluid) simulations, maybe you can elaborate how this looks like and why it is useful. hmm, I can only explain the workflow in houdini, if that would be helpful. So in the houdini's flip solver, you have the option to add a unique id to each particle (1st attached image), which you can then use to add whatever attributes consistently, even if the point count changes, when matching that 'id' each frame.(the workflow is to add attributes on the points, which then get transferred on the geometry in the meshing stage). In houdini, to get a 'curved' motion blur, the renderer (both mantra and karma) looks for an 'accel' attribute. Acceleration is the changing of velocity, so '(v - prev_v) / timeinc'. So when you supply that 'accel' attribute and have more than 2 'geometry' samples (2 'geometry' samples in houdini is 1 mb 'step' in blender, if I understand correctly), you get curved mb, on geometries with changing polycounts. (2nd attached image is 2 samples, 3rd attached is 4 samples) Again, thanks for taking the time to explain things!
flip_sim_unique_id.jpg
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404360572_1700164787135958_6998161521708102655_n.png
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405144621_340798502214458_4472743590082409541_n.png
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flip_sim_unique_id.jpg 404360572_1700164787135958_6998161521708102655_n.png 405144621_340798502214458_4472743590082409541_n.png
Aaron Carlisle commented 2024-01-20 02:08:48 +01:00
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I updated the docs in 063ee652c1

I updated the docs in https://projects.blender.org/blender/blender-manual/commit/063ee652c1b1f8d57470b58c45792d3413136693
Gabriel Gazzán commented 2024-02-25 09:53:40 +01:00
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Hi,
I've just tested motion blur with Fluids and the problem seem to be that the motion vectors are not being saved when caching using OpenVDB format.

If you change the format back to UniCache, motion blur is rendered.

Hi, I've just tested motion blur with Fluids and the problem seem to be that the motion vectors are not being saved when caching using OpenVDB format. If you change the format back to UniCache, motion blur is rendered.
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Security
Module
Animation & Rigging
Module
Core
Module
Development Management
Module
EEVEE & Viewport
Module
Grease Pencil
Module
Modeling
Module
Nodes & Physics
Module
Pipeline, Assets & IO
Module
Platforms, Builds & Tests
Module
Python API
Module
Render & Cycles
Module
Sculpt, Paint & Texture
Module
Triaging
Module
User Interface
Module
VFX & Video
Platform
FreeBSD
Platform
Linux
Platform
macOS
Platform
Windows
Priority
High
Priority
Low
Priority
Normal
Priority
Unbreak Now!
Status
Archived
Status
Confirmed
Status
Duplicate
Status
Needs Info from Developers
Status
Needs Information from User
Status
Needs Triage
Status
Resolved
Type
Bug
Type
Design
Type
Known Issue
Type
Patch
Type
Report
Type
To Do
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Reference: blender/blender#117104
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