Blender 2.69 crashes if you "File / User Preferences". #39325

New Issue

Jesse Chisholm · 2014-03-21T15:55:23+01:00

Jesse Chisholm commented

2014-03-21 15:55:23 +01:00

System Information
Windows 7 Home Premium, (6.1) [Build: 7601]
Acer Aspire 5732Z with the latest and greatest (2009) drivers from both Acer (manufacturer) and Intel (chipset).
( But I've seen this other Windows 7 machines I've tried it on. The laptop is my main machine. )
( PS: "Help / System Info" appears to save to a file, but that file can't be found on my system anywhere. Hmm. )

Blender Version
Broken: 2.69.0 r60995
( invoked via PortableApps 11.2 )

Short description of error
Blender crashes if I try to enter "User Preferences" via the "File" menu, but not from other routes.

Exact steps for others to reproduce the error

Start Blender (get past the splash screen)
click the "File" menu in the main toolbar
click the "User Preferences" command
Crash! Bang! Boom!

Exact steps for others to avoid the error

Start Blender
click the "Editor Type" button in the 3D view area toolbar
click the "User Preferences" command
everything is copacetic.

I realize this crash has been reported many times before, and eventually closed as "it is in their driver, not in our blender", but if there is one code path in Blender that triggers the crash and another code path that does not trigger the crash, then there is a blender bug that should be addressed.

Jesse

**System Information** Windows 7 Home Premium, (6.1) [Build: 7601] Acer Aspire 5732Z with the latest and greatest (2009) drivers from both Acer (manufacturer) and Intel (chipset). ( But I've seen this other Windows 7 machines I've tried it on. The laptop is my main machine. ) ( PS: "Help / System Info" appears to save to a file, but that file can't be found on my system anywhere. Hmm. ) **Blender Version** Broken: 2.69.0 r60995 ( invoked via PortableApps 11.2 ) **Short description of error** Blender crashes if I try to enter "User Preferences" via the "File" menu, but not from other routes. **Exact steps for others to *reproduce* the error** - Start Blender (get past the splash screen) - click the "File" menu in the main toolbar - click the "User Preferences" command - Crash! Bang! Boom! **Exact steps for others to *avoid* the error** - Start Blender - click the "Editor Type" button in the 3D view area toolbar - click the "User Preferences" command - everything is copacetic. I realize this crash has been reported many times before, and eventually closed as "it is in their driver, not in our blender", but if there is one code path in Blender that triggers the crash and another code path that does not trigger the crash, then there _is_ a blender bug that _should_ be addressed. - Jesse

Jesse Chisholm commented

2014-03-21 15:55:23 +01:00

Changed status to: 'Open'

crash test was assigned by Jesse Chisholm

2014-03-21 15:55:23 +01:00

Jesse Chisholm commented

2014-03-21 15:55:23 +01:00

Added subscriber: @jessechisholm

Antonis Ryakiotakis commented

2014-03-21 15:59:57 +01:00

Added subscriber: @Psy-Fi

Antonis Ryakiotakis commented

2014-03-21 15:59:57 +01:00

This is indeed a driver error in that some Intel drivers do not allow multiple windows to coexist correctly. This is probably a problem with having multiple OpenGL contexts but will leave this to someone who has looked into it before.

However this gets reported often and I don't think we wouldn't have done anything by now if it was possible to fix it.

This is indeed a driver error in that some Intel drivers do not allow multiple windows to coexist correctly. This is probably a problem with having multiple OpenGL contexts but will leave this to someone who has looked into it before. However this gets reported often and I don't think we wouldn't have done anything by now if it was possible to fix it.

Jesse Chisholm commented

2014-03-21 16:33:37 +01:00

re: I don't think we wouldn't have done anything by now if it was possible to fix it.
I agree it seems odd for a crash to have lasted so long, across so many releases. :)

re: this gets reported often
Indicating that we users consider it a Blender problem, no matter how often we are told it is a driver problem.

re: some Intel drivers do not allow multiple windows to coexist correctly
And yet, I can open two copies of Blender (multiple windows).
I suggest there is something wrong in how Blender asks for a second window, not in the fact that it does.

I further suggest that "File / User Preferences" be changed to invoke the handler for "3D View / Edit Types / User Preferences" since, from a user's perspective, that code path accomplishes exactly what the user wants, regardless whether it opens a second window or not.

NOTE: The drop down in the main toolbar for "Editor Type" only half takes you to "User Preferences".
It changes the main toolbar, but leaves the 3D-View in place.
It is the "Editor Type" button in the 3D-View tool bar that works.

**re: I don't think we wouldn't have done anything by now if it was possible to fix it.** I agree it seems odd for a crash to have lasted so long, across so many releases. :) **re: this gets reported often** Indicating that we users consider it a Blender problem, no matter how often we are told it is a driver problem. **re: some Intel drivers do not allow multiple windows to coexist correctly** And yet, I can open two copies of Blender (multiple windows). I suggest there is something wrong in how Blender asks for a second window, not in the fact that it does. I further suggest that "File / User Preferences" be changed to invoke the handler for "3D View / Edit Types / User Preferences" since, from a user's perspective, that code path accomplishes exactly what the user wants, regardless whether it opens a second window or not. NOTE: The drop down in the main toolbar for "Editor Type" only half takes you to "User Preferences". It changes the main toolbar, but leaves the 3D-View in place. It is the "Editor Type" button in the 3D-View tool bar that works.

Jesse Chisholm commented

2014-03-21 16:40:25 +01:00

PS: I just downloaded and installed Blender 2.70 (Date: 2014.02.19 05:02; Hash: 19e627c)
Issue remains in yet another version of Blender. :(

PS: I just downloaded and installed Blender 2.70 (Date: 2014.02.19 05:02; Hash: 19e627c) Issue remains in yet another version of Blender. :(

Bastien Montagne commented

2014-03-21 17:13:33 +01:00

Changed status from 'Open' to: 'Archived'

Bastien Montagne closed this issue

2014-03-21 17:13:33 +01:00

Bastien Montagne commented

2014-03-21 17:13:33 +01:00

Added subscriber: @mont29

Bastien Montagne commented

2014-03-21 17:13:33 +01:00

As Anthony said, this is not a Blender bug, but a (very well known) bug of intel drivers.

The fact that you user consider it a Blender issue does not make it a blender issue, I hope you would give credit to Blender devs to know better what are Blender issues and what are third party issues! If you want this bug to be fixed, ask Intel!

And launching two different processes at a time each one having one OGL window is not the same thing as one process having two or more OGL windows.

As for user preferences, yes, indeed, changing the type of the top-window does not affect the main one, I would dare to say that this is correct and sensible behavior!

As Anthony said, this is not a Blender bug, but a (very well known) bug of intel drivers. The fact that you user consider it a Blender issue does not make it a blender issue, I hope you would give credit to Blender devs to know better what are Blender issues and what are third party issues! If you want this bug to be fixed, ask Intel! And launching two different processes at a time each one having one OGL window is not the same thing as one process having two or more OGL windows. As for user preferences, yes, indeed, changing the type of the top-window does not affect the main one, I would dare to say that this is correct and sensible behavior!

Jesse Chisholm commented

2014-03-21 17:36:36 +01:00

re: I hope you would give credit to Blender devs to know better what are Blender issues and what are third party issues!
I do indeed.
I do not expect Blender developers to fix hardware device driver issues.
I do expect Blender developers to do what they can to prevent crashes, even if it means avoiding a driver issue.

re: two different processes ... having one OGL window is not the same thing as one process having two or more OGL windows.
Agreed.
I pointed it out because of the comment that the drivers could not do two windows, which is not precisely true.
I accept it (if you say so) that the offending drivers can't handle two windows in one process, and that is what is causing the crash.
(So don't ask for two windows in one process! It isn't necessary, in this case.)

re: I would dare to say that this is correct and sensible behavior!
And I would dare say that this is NOT the expected behavior, regardless how correct it is.
If there is a menu command claiming to take me to the "User Preferences", then it should.

It should not do apparently nothing
(yes, I know, it changes the display in the top panel, that just happens to be only tall enough to show the menu bar, so you can't see anything else. Thus I said it apparently does nothing. )
(and yes, I know, that is the "correct" thing to do from the internal structure and philosophy of Blender )
(but it is NOT the expected behavior from a marketing or user perspective. )

It should not crash - I didn't ask for a second window, I asked for a particular display screen.
A display screen Blender is perfectly capable of displaying if it does not ask for a second window.

But, then, I don't really care about the hidden panel body issue. I care about the crash issue.
For myself, I've retrained my fingers to use the workaround that doesn't crash.

For Blender, I check each new version to see if this crash has been addressed.
And each time I am told: a crash is not a bug.
Which just seems wrong.

**re: I hope you would give credit to Blender devs to know better what are Blender issues and what are third party issues!** I do indeed. I do not expect Blender developers to fix hardware device driver issues. I do expect Blender developers to do what they can to prevent crashes, even if it means avoiding a driver issue. **re: two different processes ... having one OGL window is not the same thing as one process having two or more OGL windows.** Agreed. I pointed it out because of the comment that the drivers could not do two windows, which is not precisely true. I accept it (if you say so) that the offending drivers can't handle two windows in one process, and that is what is causing the crash. (So don't ask for two windows in one process! It isn't necessary, in this case.) **re: I would dare to say that this is correct and sensible behavior!** And I would dare say that this is NOT the *expected* behavior, regardless how correct it is. If there is a menu command claiming to take me to the "User Preferences", then it should. It should not do apparently nothing (yes, I know, it changes the display in the top panel, that just happens to be only tall enough to show the menu bar, so you can't see anything else. Thus I said it *apparently* does nothing. ) (and yes, I know, that is the "correct" thing to do from the internal structure and philosophy of Blender ) (but it is NOT the *expected* behavior from a marketing or user perspective. ) It should not crash - I didn't ask for a second window, I asked for a particular display screen. A display screen Blender is perfectly capable of displaying if it does not ask for a second window. But, then, I don't really care about the hidden panel body issue. I care about the crash issue. For myself, I've retrained my fingers to use the workaround that doesn't crash. For Blender, I check each new version to see if this crash has been addressed. And each time I am told: **a crash is not a bug**. Which just seems wrong.

Antonis Ryakiotakis commented

2014-03-22 00:15:02 +01:00

Hi,

There are two ways we can handle this. One is to cripple every Intel card by not allowing two windows in that case, which for instance would not allow me to open blender as I could.
-by the way this answers your question on where the system information can be found: in the text editor-
The other is to keep a list of all driver/GPU combinations to see which work. Which would be unrealistic and impossible (most developers do not use old Intel systems).

Intel cards just don't have good OpenGL support. This is just how it is. Even AAA game titles can misbehave with bad drivers. And even in that case, the standard answer is "update your drivers". We really can't do anything about that. Some laptops manufacturers do not even update their drivers as often as they should which makes the matter even worse.

Hi, There are two ways we can handle this. One is to cripple every Intel card by not allowing two windows in that case, which for instance would not allow me to open blender as I could. ![Intel.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F82128/Intel.png) -by the way this answers your question on where the system information can be found: in the text editor- The other is to keep a list of all driver/GPU combinations to see which work. Which would be unrealistic and impossible (most developers do not use old Intel systems). Intel cards just don't have good OpenGL support. This is just how it is. Even AAA game titles can misbehave with bad drivers. And even in that case, the standard answer is "update your drivers". We really can't do anything about that. Some laptops manufacturers do not even update their drivers as often as they should which makes the matter even worse.

Jesse Chisholm commented

2014-03-22 00:40:57 +01:00

I understand that there are unpleasant consequences to making a special case for the "File / User Preferences" command to do other than it currently does. "Special Case" code is generally to be avoided.

And I understand that it isn't just "File / User Preferences" but any code path that tries to open a new 2nd window (e.g., "Window / Duplicate Window" also crashes.)

So, yes, push comes to shove, I would vote for testing to see if the chipset was Intel and doing the workaround so that Blender did not crash, but was crippled for all Intel chipset systems.

opening up a new panel with the User Preferences in it would be acceptable, also.
starting a new process for the duplicate instance of Blender would be acceptable.
- with appropriate command line arguments to get the 2nd instance to do what you need.
- which would likely require saving the current state to a temp file so the 2nd instance could sync.
  ( which I agree sounds like a headache :) )

Having Blender be partially crippled on all systems with Intel chipset seems less invasive than a crash on some systems with Intel chipset. And from the number of bugs that have been opened (and subsequently closed as "it is a driver bug") it is not a trivial percentage of systems that have these Intel chipset driver issues.

And, sadly, it doesn't look like Microsoft and/or Intel are likely to do anything about it anytime soon.

In my case, I already have upgraded my drivers to the best available from both the manufacturer of the machine and the manufacturer of the chips. I am not yet ready to toss this laptop and get a new one.

Thank you for your time.
I suspect I've vented enough, and ranted enough. ;-)
I'll stop complaining about this and related crashes. :(

I understand that there are unpleasant consequences to making a special case for the "File / User Preferences" command to do other than it currently does. "Special Case" code is generally to be avoided. And I understand that it isn't just "File / User Preferences" but any code path that tries to open a new 2nd window (e.g., "Window / Duplicate Window" also crashes.) So, yes, push comes to shove, I would vote _for_ testing to see if the chipset was Intel and doing the workaround so that Blender did not crash, but was crippled for all Intel chipset systems. * opening up a new *panel* with the User Preferences in it would be acceptable, also. * starting a new *process* for the duplicate instance of Blender would be acceptable. * * with appropriate command line arguments to get the 2nd instance to do what you need. * * which would likely require saving the current state to a temp file so the 2nd instance could sync. ( which I agree sounds like a headache :) ) Having Blender be partially crippled on all systems with Intel chipset seems less invasive than a *crash* on some systems with Intel chipset. And from the number of bugs that have been opened (and subsequently closed as "it is a driver bug") it is not a trivial percentage of systems that have these Intel chipset driver issues. And, sadly, it doesn't look like Microsoft and/or Intel are likely to do anything about it anytime soon. In my case, I already have upgraded my drivers to the best available from both the manufacturer of the machine and the manufacturer of the chips. I am not yet ready to toss this laptop and get a new one. Thank you for your time. I suspect I've vented enough, and ranted enough. ;-) I'll stop complaining about this and related crashes. :(

wgarn commented

2014-04-24 18:40:14 +02:00

(Migrated from localhost:3001)

Added subscriber: @wgarn

wgarn commented

2014-04-24 18:40:14 +02:00

(Migrated from localhost:3001)

Jesse - Thank you for the workaround; it does allow to open the User Preferences indeed.

I agree with your comment to change the "File >> User Preferences" to invoke the handler for "3D View >> Edit Types >> User Preferences"; I would even go so far to remove the "File >> User Preferences" to resolve this issue. (definitely not the other way round ;)

Jesse - Thank you for the workaround; it does allow to open the User Preferences indeed. I agree with your comment to change the "File >> User Preferences" to invoke the handler for "3D View >> Edit Types >> User Preferences"; I would even go so far to remove the "File >> User Preferences" to resolve this issue. (definitely not the other way round ;)

Campbell Barton commented

2015-09-03 07:35:21 +02:00

Closed as duplicate of #39937

Campbell Barton closed this issue

2015-09-03 07:35:21 +02:00

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Blender 2.69 crashes if you "File / User Preferences". #39325