Fast highpoly mesh editing #73360
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Reference: blender/blender#73360
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Status: Need work plan "approval", all tasks listed already. Could use a design / engineer plan and ideally a commissioner (though if the scope here is super technical just having some artists testing may be enough.
Team
Commissioner:
?Project leader: @ideasman42
Project members: @fclem
Description
Big picture: 2.7x level of performance for mesh editing.
Use cases:
Design: #74186 (Proposal for fast high poly mesh editing)
Engineer plan:
?Work plan
Milestone 1
Time estimate:
?Skip EditMesh to Mesh Conversion D7169 (committed)
Minimize GPU Transfer Overhead
Create API functions for tagging edit-mesh changes.
Limit updates to: selection data, active element.
Edge Flags Sharpness Seam
Limit updates to: deformations.
Limit updates to: custom-data layers.
Limit updates to: mesh properties.
Multi-Thread bmesh to mesh conversion.
Optimize edit-mesh GPU updating code
Benchmark production files, and investigate if the current code has room for improvement, making necessary optimizations.
Milestone 2
Time estimate:
?Partial Geometry Updates
Support updating only modified geometry when transforming vertex coordinates.
Support partial updates for custom data layers.
UV mapping.
note: we may run into diminishing returns with UV layer partial updates for custom-data layers, since only updating a single layer will already give us significant benefits. I'd suggest only to support this if it doesn't add a lot of code-complexity.
Multi-object edit-mode
BMesh support for the modifier stack.
Milestone 3 - opensubdiv
Fast mesh OpenSubdiv viewport implementation.
Time estimate:
?Unknown Milestone
Notes: Optimizing modifiers is out of the scope.
Relevant links:
Added subscribers: @fclem, @ideasman42, @dfelinto
#86341 was marked as duplicate of this issue
#68886 was marked as duplicate of this issue
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2.8x could and should go beyond 2.7x in highpoly editing especially now we can edit multiple objects at the same time.
I hope things go well for this project.
Added subscriber: @Ztreem
Added subscriber: @AditiaA.Pratama
Added subscriber: @Pipeliner
Added subscriber: @AlexanderKrause
Overall performance should be the highest priority right now.
Everything is slower than 2.79. Mesh editing, Texture painting, weight painting and sculpting are all slower on the same PC where 2.79 is faster.
Maybe the Vulkan update will help?
There's a hardcore delay when selecting vertices. Currently it's test of patience.
Added subscriber: @AlbertoVelazquez
Added subscriber: @Kjell-1
I had a forum discussion recently where I did put together a test case to highlight the lacking performance. For your consideration: Video [HERE ]]. Test-asset [ http:*artbykjell.com/temp/Z3_500k.zip | HERE . (free model used)
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Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Confirmed'
There have been many comparisons already, it looks like perfomance vs beauty issue.
Also interesting that Blender have fast sculpting mode, but slow edit mode. So the problem is in the mode.
Added subscriber: @ckohl_art
What is a reasonable definition of "high poly" for the purpose of this task? 200,000 triangles? 500k? One million? Five?
If you're looking for test cases let's assume that this photogrammetry object (exported from Meshroom) fits the definition of "high poly" that was established above:
Cut the tree trunk out of the rest of the scene. This could be either via box/lasso selecting all the unwanted faces and deleting them or it could be with the Bisect tool with "Clear Inner" or "Clear Outer" enabled.
Suzanne with subd=5 applied have million tris.
Suzanne with subd=6 have 2 mln tris, like the dragon from the video.
A good example to start from
Added subscriber: @Alrob
Don't we any other objects to test or what. Why susan?
You guys have in house studio and there are plenty of High poly production meshes. Ànd it's almost a month since this job created. But still no plans to how to tackle things.
Added subscriber: @ostry
Because subdiv lagging more than highpoly without modifiers
No.
Live Subd It is completely different issue.
Applied subdiv is "converted to mesh", a generated static highpoly geometry.
I want to say that it is easy to get highpoly mesh for basic testing edit mode.
Added subscriber: @Schiette
As for everyone pitching in with suggestions for test cases, what is needed are "production" .blend files that were performing better in 2.79 than in 2.80 as far as highpoly mesh editing goes. A cube with subdivision is not a representative of production assets).
Added subscriber: @SamGreen
We have several mln verts historic restorations photoscans and single mesh houses in classic style but they are so NDA, sorry.
Anyway, it is just "high density mesh with material and smooth/autosmooth" in the most cases, that makes subdivided monkey (applied subd, uv unwrapped mesh with several islands) a still relevant example.
Added subscriber: @VladimirTurcan
Already got a good public-domain sample file for the initial work, thanks.
Added subscriber: @MichaelWeisheim
I think this plan is fine overall. Just two points I would like to stress (which may be obvious):
Added subscriber: @Andruxa696
@ideasman42 I just added as children of this task some old related tasks with investigation details on the performance issues.
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Is there a reason why this is considered high priority, yet milestone 1 was barely worked on in spite of this being up for a year?
If the roadmaps are little more than window dressing, then the roadmaps should not exist at all and the BF should apologize to the donors (because they invested real money on the idea that Blender was now a well organized project as opposed to that little FOSS passion project with organic development).
Keep in mind that roadmaps are just intentions and plans that are tied to change, and changes are expected when other high priority things appear, and those tie this tasks to other tasks to be completed, also the programmer reponsible of this may be occupied working in a different thing which schedule may have been delayed or increased because of requirements that appeared later.
An important thing to is that only a part of a roadmap will be completed, and that a roadmap can evolve and change, that does not mean that this project is dead, but that other things are being done first.
However for talk about this would be better if you open a thread in devtalk.blender.org, usually this threads are to do specific technical talks about the task itself :)
BTW: I fully agree with you about this being a super high priority task, this is dragging other parts of performance I think :)
Setting this as normal priority, note that there are no near term plans to work on this, although spesific tasks may be picked up.
Specifically:
Keeping open as a TODO since these should be tackled at some point.
What a pity, this is a very problematic bottle neck in production, not being able to properly work with meshes from one million polys upwards it’s a big problem, not sure why there are not near term plans to tackle this.
Autodesk is only one consumer-friendly license overhaul away from erasing every bit of progress Blender made in 15 years of existence (as there would be absolutely no reason to use Blender if Maya licensing had a permanent option that was affordable).
If performance in the basic areas isn't a priority, then it is a pretty clear-cut case for a fork.
Added subscriber: @SteffenD
It will be sad if even Blender 3.0 is slower than 2.79 for modelling :/
Hi @Gilberto.R , the only known case where this happens is with the subsurf modifier. @ideasman42 will update the task soon to give some status update and closure to it, since the remaining tasks are no longer a high priority target.
(oh nevermind, Campbell has already replied to this task)
Potential performance is largely determined by design.
Autodesk software is mostly used for performance, so you usually forgive its UI/UX when use it, while Blender was used mostly for better UI/UX solutions that allow users to perform work faster, which played a significant role at the market.
It looks like during 2.8 redesign it was assumed that Autodesk software is used for UI/UX instead of performance.
As a result we has got a software with beautiful and, probably, expensive wireframe effects, which disallow you even to [see your selection properly ]] during linear modeling, with sacrificing [ https:*developer.blender.org/T78482#1014796 | draworder , compatible with architectural/CAD modeling to save some performance, making architectural modeling types incredible hard and frustrating, and so one.
Maybe it should be redesigned again?
@dfelinto It is not affecting only Subsurf modifier, even without it, dens meshes that exceed 1 mil tris, is painful to modify. I just don't get it why such negligence towards traditional modeling and its performance. I see all these fancy features implemented in every update, but what's the point of them if simple traditional Hight to low poly modeling is sluggish and painful when used on Production-ready meshes !!! Sure subdivided cube as test might work good but when you have mesh what have multiple objects and is complex and dense, performance drops to the ground, and that is with Top-notch PC system with high-end CPU and Graphics Card. I personally think you must focus on the core of the program what In my mind is 3d modeling application, make that as good as possible and all other features will benefit from that also!!!
https://youtu.be/4VmTBCFZE6Q
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I am not sure it is a problem.
Since Blender was redesigned to industry standards, you can start learn CG from Blender and then just seamlessly switch to Autodesk products, when you will reach professional performance requirements to satisfy!
This way Blender can be used as a consumer-friendly Maya student license and users will be in safe.
I think this conversation would be better moved to a devtalk or community thread or something. People subscribed to this task just want updates on progress and not a side discussion.
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@ideasman42
Hey, I was just wondering what is holding the patch from being worked on?
In the 3.x roadmap it's says :
So does it means this patch is not longer been tackled? or it's not on the agenda anymore?
@Gabi_love Campbell is on vacation. There have been a lot of performance improvements for 3.0 . And more will come on subsequent releases, like faster subdvision surface on 3.1.
Removed subscriber: @HaroldRiverolEchemendia
Yes I have been tracking the changes that had happened for 3.0 (and I know about the open subdiv patch aswell). I'm just wondering why is this patch not been worked on at all.
Are there other things more important that has been worked on? or is it something else?
Don't wanna sound rude or anything just want looking so transparency (because this patch is like 2 years old now and it's due date was for 2.92).
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is this project still ongoing
any news on this?