Swap Tool Settings and Headers in Editors #91536

New Issue

Francesco Siddi · 2021-09-20T17:15:54+02:00

Francesco Siddi commented

2021-09-20 17:15:54 +02:00

Some editors in Blender offer "tool settings". When tool settings are present, they are displayed on a higher hierarchical level than then editor menu (the header).

Since the header contains controls to define the working context (for example by defining the Mode) and tools are often dependent of the mode, it is more natural to move the headers to the higher level.

This change should affect every editor in Blender, as follows: from Tool settings -> Header to
Header -> Tool settings.

It would be appropriate to introduce this change at the beginning of the 3.x series.

Some editors in Blender offer "tool settings". When tool settings are present, they are displayed on a higher hierarchical level than then editor menu (the header). Since the header contains controls to define the working context (for example by defining the Mode) and tools are often dependent of the mode, it is more natural to move the headers to the higher level. This change should affect every editor in Blender, as follows: from **Tool settings -> Header** to **Header -> Tool settings**. ![Screen Shot 2021-09-20 at 17.05.49.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F10515363/Screen_Shot_2021-09-20_at_17.05.49.png) It would be appropriate to introduce this change at the beginning of the 3.x series.

Francesco Siddi commented

2021-09-20 17:15:54 +02:00

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Confirmed'

Francesco Siddi commented

2021-09-20 17:15:54 +02:00

Added subscriber: @fsiddi

Tomas commented

2021-09-20 19:45:00 +02:00

Added subscriber: @Rusculleda

Tomas commented

2021-09-20 19:45:00 +02:00

I hope this doesn't imply loosing the headers background transparency like in the mockup

Harley Acheson commented

2021-09-20 20:46:04 +02:00

Added subscriber: @Harley

Harley Acheson commented

2021-09-20 20:46:04 +02:00

@Rusculleda - I hope this doesn't imply loosing the headers background transparency like in the mockup

This would lose the transparency on the header area, but add it on the tool settings, so the end result should be the same with the bottom portion being transparent if desired.

I'm more worried about the layout of items and that user might not be happy with a simple swap here. The parts shown in the captures above look fine, but other parts might look odd. For example the middle (horizontally) part of the header has Transform, Pivot, Snapping, etc. That works okay now because it is in the top area, but move it down the the empty space above it will be jarring. Similarly the "Options" now shown at the right corner would be confusing if suddenly tucked between the shading buttons and the navigation widget.

So you might want, for example, to move the middle items to the header and then change the "options" so that what it does is instead of the things it effects.

Note that the samples above also show changes to the Tool Settings area with text replacing (?) the icon of the selected tool. Not that I mind, but are these changes related to this? It seems like that change is more likely addressing the exact issues I've mentioned earlier. If the current tool settings are simply moved down they would conflict with the tools themselves is showing that icon. And without the text there would be alignment issues to consider as well.

I think this requires deeper thought and design.

> @Rusculleda - I hope this doesn't imply loosing the headers background transparency like in the mockup This would lose the transparency on the header area, but add it on the tool settings, so the end result should be the same with the bottom portion being transparent if desired. I'm more worried about the layout of items and that user might not be happy with a simple swap here. The parts shown in the captures above look fine, but other parts might look odd. For example the middle (horizontally) part of the header has Transform, Pivot, Snapping, etc. That works okay now because it is in the top area, but move it down the the empty space above it will be jarring. Similarly the "Options" now shown at the right corner would be confusing if suddenly tucked between the shading buttons and the navigation widget. So you might want, for example, to move the middle items to the header and then change the "options" so that what it does is instead of the things it effects. Note that the samples above also show changes to the Tool Settings area with text replacing (?) the icon of the selected tool. Not that I mind, but are these changes related to this? It seems like that change is more likely addressing the exact issues I've mentioned earlier. If the current tool settings are simply moved down they would conflict with the tools themselves is showing that icon. And without the text there would be alignment issues to consider as well. I think this requires deeper thought and design.

Francesco Siddi commented

2021-09-21 01:13:09 +02:00

I suggest to avoid background header transparency and keeping things simple. It can still be a themable option. When it comes to the text, that was a suggestion from Pablo and it can be considered later.

I think this is a fairly simple change to assess by testing a patch, rather than making several mockups. The concept is simple and I would prefer practical validation of the idea.

For context, I asked Harley if he could help with a test implementation.

I suggest to avoid background header transparency and keeping things simple. It can still be a themable option. When it comes to the text, that was a suggestion from Pablo and it can be considered later. I think this is a fairly simple change to assess by testing a patch, rather than making several mockups. The concept is simple and I would prefer practical validation of the idea. For context, I asked Harley if he could help with a test implementation.

Julien Kaspar commented

2021-09-21 10:47:10 +02:00

Added subscriber: @JulienKaspar

Campbell Barton commented

2021-09-22 05:28:40 +02:00

Added subscriber: @ideasman42

Campbell Barton commented

2021-09-22 05:28:40 +02:00

This patch swaps the header order P2411.

Removing overlap from the additional header now seems like it's taking too much space though, especially since larger parts of it are blank.
Both headers overlap when loaded into 2.93 or older, noting this since there is no way to fix this (toggling for example doesn't resolve). However these files will load properly in 3.0.

This patch swaps the header order [P2411](https://archive.blender.org/developer/P2411.txt). - Removing overlap from the additional header now seems like it's taking too much space though, especially since larger parts of it are blank. - Both headers overlap when loaded into 2.93 or older, noting this since there is no way to fix this (toggling for example doesn't resolve). However these files will load properly in 3.0. ![screen.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F10536809/screen.png)

Dalai Felinto commented

2021-09-22 09:58:10 +02:00

Added subscriber: @dfelinto

Dalai Felinto commented

2021-09-22 09:58:10 +02:00

Added builds here: https://builder.blender.org/download/patch/D12595/

Francesco Siddi commented

2021-09-22 23:16:07 +02:00

I tested and showcased this at the Blender Studio, with positive responses. A couple of questions:

is it possible to display the the tool name (but not the icon) at the beginning of the tool settings?
is there a reason why the transform orientation, pivot selector, etc have been moved from the tool settings to the header?
would it be possible to keep the overlap for the menu (and leave the theme option to make its background transparent)?

I tested and showcased this at the Blender Studio, with positive responses. A couple of questions: - is it possible to display the the tool name (but not the icon) at the beginning of the tool settings? - is there a reason why the transform orientation, pivot selector, etc have been moved from the tool settings to the header? - would it be possible to keep the overlap for the menu (and leave the theme option to make its background transparent)?

Campbell Barton commented

2021-09-23 04:38:34 +02:00

In #91536#1224123, @fsiddi wrote:
I tested and showcased this at the Blender Studio, with positive responses. A couple of questions:

is it possible to display the the tool name (but not the icon) at the beginning of the tool settings?

is there a reason why the transform orientation, pivot selector, etc have been moved from the tool settings to the header?

would it be possible to keep the overlap for the menu (and leave the theme option to make its background transparent)?

Created P2422 with text label & transform settings in tool-header, the headers alpha theme setting is used.

Notes:

This looks unbalanced to have the transform settings in the center of the tool header, surrounded by empty space.

{F10553527}

While transparency can be tweaked, what is the intended default?

For text labels to be easily readable, we might want some back-drop behind them.

{F10553615}

> In #91536#1224123, @fsiddi wrote: > I tested and showcased this at the Blender Studio, with positive responses. A couple of questions: > > - is it possible to display the the tool name (but not the icon) at the beginning of the tool settings? > - is there a reason why the transform orientation, pivot selector, etc have been moved from the tool settings to the header? > - would it be possible to keep the overlap for the menu (and leave the theme option to make its background transparent)? Created [P2422](https://archive.blender.org/developer/P2422.txt) with text label & transform settings in tool-header, the headers alpha theme setting is used. ---- Notes: - This looks unbalanced to have the transform settings in the center of the tool header, surrounded by empty space. ``` {F10553527} ``` - While transparency can be tweaked, what is the intended default? ``` For text labels to be easily readable, we might want some back-drop behind them. ``` ``` {F10553615}

Hans Goudey commented

2021-09-23 05:07:20 +02:00

Added subscriber: @HooglyBoogly

Francesco Siddi commented

2021-09-25 02:00:50 +02:00

Added subscriber: @pablovazquez

Francesco Siddi commented

2021-09-25 02:00:50 +02:00

Thanks for the update. A couple of additional comments (also from @pablovazquez):

Move the transform settings to be always in the higher header (the one featuring editor and mode)
Reduce spacing between the tool label and the toolbar settings by at least 50%
Currently the editor selector disappears when the tool settings are visible. (It should always be visible)
Allow the header background to be transparent (in the current patch the header background seems hardcoded to be opaque, regardless of the theme)
In order to be able to theme the toolbar settings separately from the header background, we suggest to use Execution Region Background theme setting. By default it should match the header background (the theme update for 3.0 can take this into account, later).

Thanks for the update. A couple of additional comments (also from @pablovazquez): * Move the transform settings to be always in the higher header (the one featuring editor and mode) * Reduce spacing between the tool label and the toolbar settings by at least 50% * Currently the editor selector disappears when the tool settings are visible. (It should always be visible) * Allow the header background to be transparent (in the current patch the header background seems hardcoded to be opaque, regardless of the theme) * In order to be able to theme the toolbar settings separately from the header background, we suggest to use `Execution Region Background` theme setting. By default it should match the header background (the theme update for 3.0 can take this into account, later).

tintwotin commented

2021-09-25 05:56:46 +02:00

Added subscriber: @tintwotin

tintwotin commented

2021-09-25 05:56:46 +02:00

In #91536#1224205, @ideasman42 wrote:

^In a case like this with plenty of horizontal space and nothing in the center of the editor header, why not add tool options there? And only use double header height if there is a need for it?
Imo, does the double headers seem like excessive use of space in most cases ex.:

(Default vse workspace)

With the patch:

> In #91536#1224205, @ideasman42 wrote: ![screen.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F10553527/screen.png) ^In a case like this with plenty of horizontal space and nothing in the center of the editor header, why not add tool options there? And only use double header height if there is a need for it? Imo, does the double headers seem like excessive use of space in most cases ex.: ![image.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F10581663/image.png) (Default vse workspace) With the patch: ![image.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F10583207/image.png)

Campbell Barton commented

2021-09-25 06:10:34 +02:00

Submitted D12631, so the patch can be built by our build-bots.

In #91536#1225665, @fsiddi wrote:
Thanks for the update. A couple of additional comments (also from @pablovazquez):

Move the transform settings to be always in the higher header (the one featuring editor and mode)

Done, this is what I had in the original patch - so assume you mean to add this back.

Reduce spacing between the tool label and the toolbar settings by at least 50%

This should really be handled in the layout engine, any workaround for this is quite hackish.

Labels use a large fixed margin, so using a percentage scale will clip longer text (some names are clipping at 85%).

I've made this into a popover, which has better scale and allows access tools even when the toolbar is hidden.
Ideally we would have better control over label margins though.

Currently the editor selector disappears when the tool settings are visible. (It should always be visible)

That was an oversight, fixed.

Allow the header background to be transparent (in the current patch the header background seems hardcoded to be opaque, regardless of the theme)

In the current patch only the tool-header can be made transparent by changing the "Header" alpha in the theme settings (matching current behavior where only one becomes transparent), are you saying you would want both headers to be transparent, controllable separately?

In order to be able to theme the toolbar settings separately from the header background,

Not sure what is meant by this, they are already separate.

we suggest to use Execution Region Background theme setting. By default it should match the header background (the theme update for 3.0 can take this into account, later).

The tool-header can already be made transparent separately from the toolbar.

Can you show what you would like the final result to be by default? (details about how they are controlled can be changed separately, if its even needed).

Also, I'd rather toolbar theme tweaks be handled separately from swapping headers (since it doesn't seem closely related) - unless there is some good reason for this - it seems an arbitrary change to make when the proposed change is to swap headers.

Submitted [D12631](https://archive.blender.org/developer/D12631), so the patch can be built by our build-bots. > In #91536#1225665, @fsiddi wrote: > Thanks for the update. A couple of additional comments (also from @pablovazquez): > > * Move the transform settings to be always in the higher header (the one featuring editor and mode) Done, this is what I had in the original patch - so assume you mean to add this back. > * Reduce spacing between the tool label and the toolbar settings by at least 50% This should really be handled in the layout engine, any workaround for this is quite hackish. Labels use a large fixed margin, so using a percentage scale will clip longer text (some names are clipping at 85%). I've made this into a popover, which has better scale and allows access tools even when the toolbar is hidden. Ideally we would have better control over label margins though. > * Currently the editor selector disappears when the tool settings are visible. (It should always be visible) That was an oversight, fixed. > * Allow the header background to be transparent (in the current patch the header background seems hardcoded to be opaque, regardless of the theme) In the current patch only the tool-header can be made transparent by changing the "Header" alpha in the theme settings (matching current behavior where only one becomes transparent), are you saying you would want both headers to be transparent, controllable separately? > * In order to be able to theme the toolbar settings separately from the header background, Not sure what is meant by this, they are already separate. > we suggest to use `Execution Region Background` theme setting. By default it should match the header background (the theme update for 3.0 can take this into account, later). The tool-header can already be made transparent separately from the toolbar. Can you show what you would like the final result to be by default? (details about how they are controlled can be changed separately, if its even needed). Also, I'd rather toolbar theme tweaks be handled separately from swapping headers (since it doesn't seem closely related) - unless there is some good reason for this - it seems an arbitrary change to make when the proposed change is to swap headers.

RedMser commented

2021-09-25 10:33:31 +02:00

Added subscriber: @RedMser

Francesco Siddi commented

2021-09-28 00:48:30 +02:00

Thanks for the iteration and the fixes. In order to move forward with this, I suggest the following:

please restore the label display in the tools settings. As of now, it's preferable to deal with the labels as they are than to introduce a popover with essentially the same functionality of the toolbar. Let's try to avoid the duplication :)
when it comes to header transparency, let's keep it as it is an deal with it in a separate revision. I agree it's not essential right now, and we should provide a clear mockup for it

I hope you agree with the suggestions. If so, it would be great to see this updated merged!

Thanks for the iteration and the fixes. In order to move forward with this, I suggest the following: - please restore the label display in the tools settings. As of now, it's preferable to deal with the labels as they are than to introduce a popover with essentially the same functionality of the toolbar. Let's try to avoid the duplication :) - when it comes to header transparency, let's keep it as it is an deal with it in a separate revision. I agree it's not essential right now, and we should provide a clear mockup for it I hope you agree with the suggestions. If so, it would be great to see this updated merged!

Campbell Barton commented

2021-09-28 07:08:04 +02:00

Updated D12631, committed fix for label spacing c7d94a7827.

Updated [D12631](https://archive.blender.org/developer/D12631), committed fix for label spacing c7d94a7827.

Campbell Barton commented

2021-09-29 12:05:18 +02:00

Changed status from 'Confirmed' to: 'Resolved'

Campbell Barton closed this issue

2021-09-29 12:05:18 +02:00

Campbell Barton self-assigned this 2021-09-29 12:05:18 +02:00

Campbell Barton commented

2021-09-29 12:05:18 +02:00

Committed 4cf4bb2664, closing.

Committed 4cf4bb2664, closing.

CobraA commented

2021-10-01 00:06:40 +02:00

Added subscriber: @CobraA

CobraA commented

2021-10-01 00:06:41 +02:00

IMO it doesn't make sense to put the options below the popovers which are often used and since I use open menus on mouse hover things can get annoying quickly.

{F10698923 size = full}

IMO it doesn't make sense to put the options below the popovers which are often used and since I use open menus on mouse hover things can get annoying quickly. {[F10698923](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F10698923/PFF.jpg) size = full}

Gilberto Rodrigues commented

2021-10-20 00:12:28 +02:00

Added subscriber: @Gilberto.R

Gilberto Rodrigues commented

2021-10-20 00:12:28 +02:00

There has been a lot of discussion around this in blender chat, and after testing 3.0 I realized some things look very odd. This needs more thought.

Some of the issues are:

Doubled tool name in sculpt mode.
The tool name text instead of the icon causes UI to jump when switching tool.
The "Drag: Select Box" button shows for tools it shouldn't. For example annotate, measure, add object tools, etc.
Weird spacing between text and their buttons in the tool header, it varies a lot. It should be visually grouped.

There has been a lot of discussion around this in blender chat, and after testing 3.0 I realized some things look very odd. This needs more thought. Some of the issues are: - Doubled tool name in sculpt mode. ![double text sculpt.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F11298954/double_text_sculpt.png) - The tool name text instead of the icon causes UI to jump when switching tool. ![jumpy.gif](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F11298963/jumpy.gif) - The "Drag: Select Box" button shows for tools it shouldn't. For example annotate, measure, add object tools, etc. - Weird spacing between text and their buttons in the tool header, it varies a lot. It should be visually grouped. ![spacing.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F11299119/spacing.png)

Alberto Velázquez commented

2021-10-20 00:39:35 +02:00

Added subscriber: @AlbertoVelazquez

Alberto Velázquez commented

2021-10-20 00:39:35 +02:00

As the person who designed the tool header concept I have to say that it has completely broken the idea and its usability has been severely damaged by poorly argued reasons.

Seeing the result of the change my opinion in summary would be that it should be completely reversed. But I will expose the problems that have been generated that are much more than what has been improved.

It breaks the coherence of a header only for mode/tool tools and another one for the general elements of the area. With this change the tool options are divided between both headers (because in one of them go now the options like location, origin, correct texture and in another one the pivot, etc...).
It is therefore not possible to work with the separate headers above and below because it is uncomfortable.
If someone does not want to work with the tool settings header, since it now spoils the experience completely by splitting the options, he is forced to use it anyway because without it the basic options that are used hundreds of times in a session are unusable in the editor.
Again we are limited when working with the maximized area, because without these tool settings the only way to access them is through a tedious way that goes through the property editor.
Options that can completely destroy your work are hidden from the user's eye, mainly correcting the UVs when editing the mesh. That was already a problem in 2.93 and now it is seriously worsened.
It forces the main header to be even more crowded, eliminating one of the main virtues of the tool settings header.

I leave some more cons, but I believe that this is enough reason to revert a change that its only positive point is to have a more correct mental hierarchy from the perspective of a developer.

The original proposed design did contemplate the editing mode in a different place to what we have in 2.93 (something that I already exposed when it was implemented) and that surely relocating all the elements again could get something better. But sincerely seeing the null improvement in the UX and how users are left blind to basic options I think it would be better to reverse this improvement instead of wasting time trying to find a better solution based on iterate and iterate to finally reach a concept inferior to the current one.

As the person who designed the tool header concept I have to say that it has completely broken the idea and its usability has been severely damaged by poorly argued reasons. Seeing the result of the change my opinion in summary would be that it should be completely reversed. But I will expose the problems that have been generated that are much more than what has been improved. - It breaks the coherence of a header only for mode/tool tools and another one for the general elements of the area. With this change the tool options are divided between both headers (because in one of them go now the options like location, origin, correct texture and in another one the pivot, etc...). - It is therefore not possible to work with the separate headers above and below because it is uncomfortable. - If someone does not want to work with the tool settings header, since it now spoils the experience completely by splitting the options, he is forced to use it anyway because without it the basic options that are used hundreds of times in a session are unusable in the editor. - Again we are limited when working with the maximized area, because without these tool settings the only way to access them is through a tedious way that goes through the property editor. - Options that can completely destroy your work are hidden from the user's eye, mainly correcting the UVs when editing the mesh. That was already a problem in 2.93 and now it is seriously worsened. - It forces the main header to be even more crowded, eliminating one of the main virtues of the tool settings header. I leave some more cons, but I believe that this is enough reason to revert a change that its only positive point is to have a more correct mental hierarchy from the perspective of a developer. The original proposed design did contemplate the editing mode in a different place to what we have in 2.93 (something that I already exposed when it was implemented) and that surely relocating all the elements again could get something better. But sincerely seeing the null improvement in the UX and how users are left blind to basic options I think it would be better to reverse this improvement instead of wasting time trying to find a better solution based on iterate and iterate to finally reach a concept inferior to the current one. ![image.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F11298458/image.png)

Alberto Velázquez commented

2021-10-20 00:42:16 +02:00

Since the thread is closed I will quote the main developers to take into account all the problems I have discussed.

@ideasman42 @dfelinto @fsiddi

Since the thread is closed I will quote the main developers to take into account all the problems I have discussed. @ideasman42 @dfelinto @fsiddi

Gilberto Rodrigues commented

2021-10-20 00:42:49 +02:00

This comment was removed by @Gilberto.R

*This comment was removed by @Gilberto.R*

Francesco Siddi commented

2021-10-23 01:32:50 +02:00

Thank you for the feedback @dcvertice. Some of it has been addressed by Dalai's commit. I was not aware about the fact that you designed the tool header concept.
Before suggesting this change I reached out to several stakeholders in the UI and tools team, as well as artists, and got positive reactions on it. The fact that tool settings display in some editors presents issues is a topic worth investigating, although it's not directly related to this change.

Thank you for the feedback @dcvertice. Some of it has been addressed by Dalai's commit. I was not aware about the fact that you designed the tool header concept. Before suggesting this change I reached out to several stakeholders in the UI and tools team, as well as artists, and got positive reactions on it. The fact that tool settings display in some editors presents issues is a topic worth investigating, although it's not directly related to this change.

Alberto Velázquez commented

2021-10-23 02:14:56 +02:00

Hi @fsiddi In my experience it is very easy for people not to see the problems of a UI/UX in the future and only focus on the positive and visual part. Moreover, it is the most normal problem that we users have had with the UI/UX changes in blender since a few years ago and that has led to many revert and unnecessary changes if this had been taken into account. But if we talk about things that affect modelers it is normal that nobody in the environment close to the developers take into account the workflow and the implications in the whole UI system of blender and its philosophy.

As I said, I don't know what is the final idea with this change, because I can't find any mockup or document clarifying what they want to achieve. But actually this change has greatly spoiled the workflow of a modeler and is not taking into account what the tool settings is for, why it exists, how it is used and what are the implications of the current changes.

If you could explain me what is the real goal of all these changes I could try to create a mockup to put these goals inside the tool settings header design.

Hi @fsiddi In my experience it is very easy for people not to see the problems of a UI/UX in the future and only focus on the positive and visual part. Moreover, it is the most normal problem that we users have had with the UI/UX changes in blender since a few years ago and that has led to many revert and unnecessary changes if this had been taken into account. But if we talk about things that affect modelers it is normal that nobody in the environment close to the developers take into account the workflow and the implications in the whole UI system of blender and its philosophy. As I said, I don't know what is the final idea with this change, because I can't find any mockup or document clarifying what they want to achieve. But actually this change has greatly spoiled the workflow of a modeler and is not taking into account what the tool settings is for, why it exists, how it is used and what are the implications of the current changes. If you could explain me what is the real goal of all these changes I could try to create a mockup to put these goals inside the tool settings header design.

Harley Acheson commented

2021-10-23 03:22:06 +02:00

@fsiddi - Before suggesting this change I reached out to several stakeholders in the UI and tools team, as well as artists, and got positive reactions on it...

Which members of the UI Team did you discuss this with?

> @fsiddi - Before suggesting this change I reached out to several stakeholders in the UI and tools team, as well as artists, and got positive reactions on it... Which members of the UI Team did you discuss this with?

NXSK commented

2021-10-29 03:45:18 +02:00

Added subscriber: @NXSK

NXSK commented

2021-10-29 03:45:18 +02:00

I'm not satisffied with 3.0's new header. When windows become narrow, the new header can not show all the buttons on the right.

2.93

3.0

If I need a small window in 3.0, there will be a lot trouble sliding the header again and again.

I'm not satisffied with 3.0's new header. When windows become narrow, the new header can not show all the buttons on the right. 2.93 ![2.93.jpg](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F11585799/2.93.jpg) 3.0 ![3.0.jpg](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F11585805/3.0.jpg) If I need a small window in 3.0, there will be a lot trouble sliding the header again and again.

Germano Cavalcante referenced this issue

2023-02-24 16:33:29 +01:00

Regression : 3D View, Header Alpha setting does not work. #105163

Sign in to join this conversation.

No Label

Download

What's New

Blender Studio

Manual

Developers Blog

Documentation

Benchmark

Blender Conference

Development Fund

One-time Donations

Swap Tool Settings and Headers in Editors #91536