Compositor - Export wrong 8bit premultiplied images. #99337

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opened 2022-07-02 13:25:11 +02:00 by Eugenio Pignataro · 24 comments

Eugenio Pignataro commented 2022-07-02 13:25:11 +02:00

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System Information
Linux Ubuntu 22.04
Nvidia 1070 ti

Blender Version
Broken: 3.3
Worked:

Short description of error
Hi!
We are trying to export maps to Unity.
Unity uses mixed maps like metallic and smooth in 1 texture map.
Blender changes the RGB values in 8 bits pictures.

Exact steps for others to reproduce the error
We've tried mix the maps with the compositor using "set alpha", separate color, and finally with alpha connected in alpha viewer.

This is the Blender result:

I've tried the same procedure in natron and It works fine:

And finally we've done the same using Pillow in Python, and it works very well too.

I wanna show you the comparison:

We've seen many people talking about it.
Maybe I'm wrong, but we couldn't find the solution in blender. We tried!!!
Is it a error? is it a Blender limitation?

THANKS A BUNCH!!

**System Information** Linux Ubuntu 22.04 Nvidia 1070 ti **Blender Version** Broken: 3.3 Worked: **Short description of error** Hi! We are trying to export maps to Unity. Unity uses mixed maps like metallic and smooth in 1 texture map. Blender changes the RGB values in 8 bits pictures. **Exact steps for others to reproduce the error** We've tried mix the maps with the compositor using "set alpha", separate color, and finally with alpha connected in alpha viewer.  This is the Blender result:  I've tried the same procedure in natron and It works fine:  And finally we've done the same using Pillow in Python, and it works very well too.  I wanna show you the comparison:  We've seen many people talking about it. Maybe I'm wrong, but we couldn't find the solution in blender. We tried!!! Is it a error? is it a Blender limitation? THANKS A BUNCH!!

Eugenio Pignataro commented 2022-07-02 13:25:11 +02:00

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Eugenio Pignataro commented 2022-07-02 13:29:53 +02:00

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Comparison in compositor:

2022-07-02 08-28-36.mp4

Comparison in compositor: [2022-07-02 08-28-36.mp4](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F13248405/2022-07-02_08-28-36.mp4)

Nahuel Belich commented 2022-07-02 21:26:38 +02:00

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Nahuel Belich commented 2022-07-02 21:26:38 +02:00

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Doing a bit of archeological testing i did some test in older blender versions under windows 10, i try to do it under ubuntu but the builds downloaded from the fundation archives doesn't have all the libraries.
Saved as .tga or raw .tga since .png always did funny stuff in all softwares not only blender.
Original image used for testing full alpha at 1

It seems to work properly in 2.49b

2.57

and 2.62

Opening all the above in blender 3.3 alpha show this, so it seems that at least until 2.62 the numbers work properly, the written numbers in the screen shot are the RGB values, the alpha value across the picture its 0.5020( ¿? ).

Doing a bit of archeological testing i did some test in older blender versions under windows 10, i try to do it under ubuntu but the builds downloaded from the fundation archives doesn't have all the libraries. Saved as .tga or raw .tga since .png always did funny stuff in all softwares not only blender. Original image used for testing full alpha at 1  It seems to work properly in 2.49b   2.57   and 2.62  Opening all the above in blender 3.3 alpha show this, so it seems that at least until 2.62 the numbers work properly, the written numbers in the screen shot are the RGB values, the alpha value across the picture its 0.5020( ¿? ). 

Nahuel Belich commented 2022-07-02 21:36:56 +02:00

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Doing the same test as before in blender 3.3 and saving tga shows a distorted RGB numbers

Doing the same test as before in blender 3.3 and saving tga shows a distorted RGB numbers   

Omar Emara commented 2022-07-04 10:53:40 +02:00

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Omar Emara commented 2022-07-04 10:53:40 +02:00

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Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Needs Developer To Reproduce'

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Needs Developer To Reproduce'

Omar Emara commented 2022-07-04 10:53:40 +02:00

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I can reproduce that, but it unclear to me what is happening. So tagging the module for more information.

Save the viewer image of the compositor into an 8-bit PNG without color management. The output image will have unusual values as demonstrated in the report.

compositorAlphaSavePNG.blend

I can reproduce that, but it unclear to me what is happening. So tagging the module for more information. Save the viewer image of the compositor into an 8-bit PNG without color management. The output image will have unusual values as demonstrated in the report. [compositorAlphaSavePNG.blend](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F13257080/compositorAlphaSavePNG.blend)

Eugenio Pignataro commented 2022-07-04 14:36:26 +02:00

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The problem is in the following point:
RGBA is multiplied by alpha values. We need the RGBA values untouched.

Thanks!

(Sorry my bad english)

The problem is in the following point: RGBA is multiplied by alpha values. We need the RGBA values untouched. Thanks! (Sorry my bad english)

Omar Emara commented 2022-07-04 14:47:21 +02:00

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But the RGB values becomes higher not lower, one would expect alpha pre-multiplication to reduce or maintain the values of the RGB channels. So I suspect something else is going on.

But the RGB values becomes higher not lower, one would expect alpha pre-multiplication to reduce or maintain the values of the RGB channels. So I suspect something else is going on.

Eugenio Pignataro commented 2022-07-04 16:55:29 +02:00

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I think in 2 different problems:

• RGBA values are affected by alpha.
• RGBA values are affected by CM. It is ok for me.

I don't know if I'm explaining the problem well.

I think in 2 different problems: - RGBA values are affected by alpha. - RGBA values are affected by CM. It is ok for me. I don't know if I'm explaining the problem well.

Michael Soluyanov commented 2022-11-05 22:13:57 +01:00

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Michael Soluyanov commented 2022-11-05 22:13:57 +01:00

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Adding alpha convert seems to be a walkaround:

Adding alpha convert seems to be a walkaround:  

Eugenio Pignataro commented 2022-11-07 14:09:00 +01:00

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Hi Michael, thanks for your answer.

Blender multiply the alpha by the RGB. We don't want this result.
We need keep the RGB untouched, and alpha untouched too.

When you use "to premultiplied" you are saying to blender "multiply and burn RGB by Alpha".

The procedure should be very simple. We need only add an alpha channel, that's all.

If you see "only color" you will see the problem, the RBG has been changed.

Thanks for your help and sorry my bad english!

Hi Michael, thanks for your answer. Blender multiply the alpha by the RGB. We don't want this result. We need keep the RGB untouched, and alpha untouched too. When you use "to premultiplied" you are saying to blender "multiply and burn RGB by Alpha". The procedure should be very simple. We need only add an alpha channel, that's all. If you see "only color" you will see the problem, the RBG has been changed.   Thanks for your help and sorry my bad english!

Michael Soluyanov commented 2022-11-07 21:07:34 +01:00

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Blender seems to composite images using premultiplied workflow. It is natural for render engines to output render layers in premultiplied form, so Blender compositor works this way. You can clearly see that if you try to alpha over the image with 0 alpha:

So in order to save image to PNG it should be converted to non-premultiplied, (rgb should be divided by alpha, so that pixels becomes brighter) because PNG specification limit PNG to non-premultiplied alpha only: https://www.w3.org/TR/PNG-Rationale.html#R.Non-premultiplied-alpha.

In my example, I multiply the image one more time, so that un-premultiplying process divide only one "layer" of multiplication. If you say that it is a very ugly workaround, I will agree. But there is no other way to do that except using apps with non-premultiplied workflow like all 2D apps in the world. Blender compositor is not designed to do such simple things.

Blender seems to composite images using premultiplied workflow. It is natural for render engines to output render layers in premultiplied form, so Blender compositor works this way. You can clearly see that if you try to alpha over the image with 0 alpha:  So in order to save image to PNG it should be converted to non-premultiplied, (rgb should be divided by alpha, so that pixels becomes brighter) because PNG specification limit PNG to non-premultiplied alpha only: https://www.w3.org/TR/PNG-Rationale.html#R.Non-premultiplied-alpha. In my example, I multiply the image one more time, so that un-premultiplying process divide only one "layer" of multiplication. If you say that it is a very ugly workaround, I will agree. But there is no other way to do that except using apps with non-premultiplied workflow like all 2D apps in the world. Blender compositor is not designed to do such simple things.

Eugenio Pignataro commented 2022-11-07 21:54:14 +01:00

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Hi Michael!
I understand the idea, but I think that it is no good for a production pipeline, we are trying to fix a root limitation with a "patch".

I've tried nuke and natron, they can do this simple procedure.

If we think about it we can't mix maps to export to platforms like Unity. Lot of users needs embed an alpha to the RGB, and they can't do it!

Premultiplied worflow has a HUGE limitation, if you multiply some value by zero this value die, and you can't restore it anymore.

I would continue using external softwares, but I believe that blender could improve some "under the hood" things that help us to do a better work. Maybe I'm wrong, it is only my opinion.

My only solution is using EXR or a Python Library to do it.

Thanks a bunch for your interest! really!

Hi Michael! I understand the idea, but I think that it is no good for a production pipeline, we are trying to fix a root limitation with a "patch". I've tried nuke and natron, they can do this simple procedure. If we think about it we can't mix maps to export to platforms like Unity. Lot of users needs embed an alpha to the RGB, and they can't do it! Premultiplied worflow has a HUGE limitation, if you multiply some value by zero this value die, and you can't restore it anymore. I would continue using external softwares, but I believe that blender could improve some "under the hood" things that help us to do a better work. Maybe I'm wrong, it is only my opinion. My only solution is using EXR or a Python Library to do it. Thanks a bunch for your interest! really!

Brecht Van Lommel commented 2022-11-07 22:21:30 +01:00

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Brecht Van Lommel commented 2022-11-07 22:21:30 +01:00

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Changed status from 'Needs Developer To Reproduce' to: 'Archived'

Changed status from 'Needs Developer To Reproduce' to: 'Archived'

Brecht Van Lommel closed this issue 2022-11-07 22:21:30 +01:00

Brecht Van Lommel commented 2022-11-07 22:21:30 +01:00

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The Blender compositor is designed for premultiplied alpha and compositing renders. It's not a general image processing tool that also works for e.g. editing texture maps. It might be useful to extend it for more use cases, but that's outside the scope of the bug tracker.

If you want values to remain untouched, your best bet is to work fully with EXR files which generally will not get any color management and alpha manipulation.

Possibly you can load an image as Non-Color Data and Channel Packed in the compositor, and then save that as an EXR to disk. Then load that EXR as an image datablock and save it as Non-Color Data, Channel Packed PNG. That would sidestep the Blender assumption that everything coming out of the compositor is a render, not e.g. a texture.

But the RGB values becomes higher not lower, one would expect alpha pre-multiplication to reduce or maintain the values of the RGB channels. So I suspect something else is going on.

Saving a (assumed premultiplied) compositing output in PNG will unpremultiply and so increase RGB values, that's by design.

The Blender compositor is designed for premultiplied alpha and compositing renders. It's not a general image processing tool that also works for e.g. editing texture maps. It might be useful to extend it for more use cases, but that's outside the scope of the bug tracker. If you want values to remain untouched, your best bet is to work fully with EXR files which generally will not get any color management and alpha manipulation. Possibly you can load an image as Non-Color Data and Channel Packed in the compositor, and then save that as an EXR to disk. Then load that EXR as an image datablock and save it as Non-Color Data, Channel Packed PNG. That would sidestep the Blender assumption that everything coming out of the compositor is a render, not e.g. a texture. > But the RGB values becomes higher not lower, one would expect alpha pre-multiplication to reduce or maintain the values of the RGB channels. So I suspect something else is going on. Saving a (assumed premultiplied) compositing output in PNG will unpremultiply and so increase RGB values, that's by design.

Michael Soluyanov commented 2022-11-07 23:55:05 +01:00

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@brecht thanks for explanation! Can you explain the difference in loading PNG8 and PNG16, that I posted here: https://developer.blender.org/T99701#1441277 ? It looks a bit weird that PNG8 loads as premultiplied even alpha setting is straight by default. I suppose that it is related to texturing, but I can't find any information about that. Anyway, take a look at this report, it seems to be related.

@brecht thanks for explanation! Can you explain the difference in loading PNG8 and PNG16, that I posted here: https://developer.blender.org/T99701#1441277 ? It looks a bit weird that PNG8 loads as premultiplied even alpha setting is straight by default. I suppose that it is related to texturing, but I can't find any information about that. Anyway, take a look at this report, it seems to be related.

Brecht Van Lommel commented 2022-11-07 23:58:24 +01:00

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I would expect 8 and 16 bit PNGs to work the same, so that's probably a bug.

I would expect 8 and 16 bit PNGs to work the same, so that's probably a bug.

Michael Soluyanov commented 2022-11-08 00:02:24 +01:00

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Should it be reported then?

Should it be reported then?

Vyacheslav Kobozev commented 2022-11-09 20:00:11 +01:00

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Evan Wilson referenced this issue 2023-04-20 21:09:43 +02:00

Alpha mistakenly affected other channels when using Combine Color node in Compositor #107169

Saberpeep commented 2024-03-14 05:52:33 +01:00

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Saving a (assumed premultiplied) compositing output in PNG will unpremultiply and so increase RGB values, that's by design.

Aha, this was the key I needed to know to workaround this issue.

Blender attempts to unpremultiply presumably by dividing by the alpha map, but if the alpha map goes to completely black, it can no longer be divided because any division of zero results in zero. Therefore a super hacky workaround is as follows:

1. First pass the alpha value through a Color Ramp with the black set to 0.001, thus preventing it from reaching true zero and messing up the division later.
2. Then you pass the new fudged alpha into the Set Alpha node set to Replace Alpha so that the alpha is stored in the yellow color output.
3. Then you pass it through an Alpha Convert node set to To Premultiplied. For some reason you can't just set the Set Alpha node to Apply Mask, I guess the Alpha Convert node stores some kind of metadata in there that the exporter needs.
4. Then when you save it, it un-premultiplies it again and you end up with more-or-less straight alpha.

Yes I know that's super cursed, but it works, at least for my purposes (which is packing a mask into the alpha channel of an rgb texture for use in unity). I really wish there was just a checkbox there that told blender not to try to un-premultiply.

> Saving a (assumed premultiplied) compositing output in PNG will unpremultiply and so increase RGB values, that's by design. Aha, this was the key I needed to know to workaround this issue. Blender attempts to unpremultiply presumably by dividing by the alpha map, but if the alpha map goes to completely black, it can no longer be divided because any division of zero results in zero. Therefore a super hacky workaround is as follows: 1. First pass the alpha value through a Color Ramp with the black set to 0.001, thus preventing it from reaching true zero and messing up the division later. 2. Then you pass the new fudged alpha into the Set Alpha node set to `Replace Alpha` so that the alpha is stored in the yellow color output. 3. Then you pass it through an Alpha Convert node set to `To Premultiplied`. For some reason you can't just set the Set Alpha node to `Apply Mask`, I guess the Alpha Convert node stores some kind of metadata in there that the exporter needs. 4. Then when you save it, it un-premultiplies it again and you end up with more-or-less straight alpha. Yes I know that's super cursed, but it works, at least for my purposes (which is packing a mask into the alpha channel of an rgb texture for use in unity). I really wish there was just a checkbox there that told blender not to try to un-premultiply. 

Plane_Metallic_composite.png

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Nodes & Physics

Interest

OpenGL

Interest

Overlay

Interest

Overrides

Interest

Performance

Interest

Physics

Interest

Pipeline, Assets & IO

Interest

Platforms, Builds & Tests

Interest

Python API

Interest

Render & Cycles

Interest

Render Pipeline

Interest

Sculpt, Paint & Texture

Interest

Text Editor

Interest

Translations

Interest

Triaging

Interest

Undo

Interest

USD

Interest

User Interface

Interest

UV Editing

Interest

VFX & Video

Interest

Video Sequencer

Interest

Viewport & EEVEE

Interest

Virtual Reality

Interest

Vulkan

Interest

Wayland

Interest

Workbench

Interest: X11

Legacy

Asset Browser Project

Legacy

Blender 2.8 Project

Legacy

Milestone 1: Basic, Local Asset Browser

Legacy

OpenGL Error

Meta

Good First Issue

Meta

Papercut

Meta

Retrospective

Meta

Security

Module

Animation & Rigging

Module

Core

Module

Development Management

Module

Grease Pencil

Module

Modeling

Module

Nodes & Physics

Module

Pipeline, Assets & IO

Module

Platforms, Builds & Tests

Module

Python API

Module

Render & Cycles

Module

Sculpt, Paint & Texture

Module

Triaging

Module

User Interface

Module

VFX & Video

Module

Viewport & EEVEE

Platform

FreeBSD

Platform

Linux

Platform

macOS

Platform

Windows

Severity

High

Severity

Low

Severity

Normal

Severity

Unbreak Now!

Status

Archived

Status

Confirmed

Status

Duplicate

Status

Needs Info from Developers

Status

Needs Information from User

Status

Needs Triage

Status

Resolved

Type

Bug

Type

Design

Type

Known Issue

Type

Patch

Type

Report

Type

To Do

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Reference: blender/blender#99337

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