Translation policy for English terms #104783

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Damien Picard · 2024-05-05T12:59:19+02:00

Damien Picard commented

2024-05-05 12:59:19 +02:00

A discussion came up among the French translation team about the policy of not translating menus and buttons.

The manual’s style guide states that “menu and button names should never be translated”, because “we expect our readers to use the English UI”.
This decision was taken in #47012. The rationale AFAICT was:

that keeping the manual translation in sync with the UI was a lot of work,
that screenshots shouldn’t be translated,
that it was recommended for users to use Blender in English anyway, and
that doing so gives easier access to tutorials in English.

While it is true that screenshots are hard to translate and probably shouldn’t be, that doesn’t mean text needs to be in English as well.

We’d argue that:

not everyone is fluent in English
not every linguistic community has the same culture
someone using the UI in their language should be able to search the manual for the terms they see in the UI
keeping the manual up-to-date is up to manual editors and translators, so they should be able to choose to do this work.

More and more UI translations became complete in the last few years, and quite a few are very actively maintained, so we think this rule should be removed so manual translators can choose to show the original text, the translation, or both.

Note that currently many translations of the manual do just that anyway, so this is just to formally change the policy.

A discussion came up among the French translation team about the [policy](https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/contribute/translations/style_guide.html#never) of not translating menus and buttons. The manual’s style guide states that “menu and button names should never be translated”, because “we expect our readers to use the English UI”. This decision was taken in #47012. The rationale AFAICT was: 1. that keeping the manual translation in sync with the UI was a lot of work, 2. that screenshots shouldn’t be translated, 3. that it was recommended for users to use Blender in English anyway, and 4. that doing so gives easier access to tutorials in English. While it is true that screenshots are hard to translate and probably shouldn’t be, that doesn’t mean text needs to be in English as well. We’d argue that: - not everyone is fluent in English - not every linguistic community has the same culture - someone using the UI in their language should be able to search the manual for the terms they see in the UI - keeping the manual up-to-date is up to manual editors and translators, so they should be able to choose to do this work. More and more UI translations became complete in the last few years, and quite a few are very actively maintained, so we think this rule should be removed so manual translators can choose to show the original text, the translation, or both. Note that currently many translations of the manual do just that anyway, so this is just to formally change the policy.

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Gabriel Gazzán commented

2024-05-05 19:56:12 +02:00

Hi!

To me, personally, contributing time to the community (and that's what I've been doing for free for the last 13 years now, doing the full UI and just recently some of the manual Spanish translation, too) mainly makes sense if we aim to bring local users, an "as close as possible to" full native experience. Both UI and Manual.

Who the client is:

Specially in lots of parts of Latin America, you could make a whole life without needing to learn English at all, because the Spanish speaking territory is so vast, across the different countries, that you really don't get pushed by society to learn it until you are an adult, if you really need it.
Moreover, formal education systems (which nowadays often include some English rudiments) in a lot of those countries often do not reach out to every remote village in those huge lands.
So the mental image I use to define who "my client" is, as a translator for Blender, leads me to a curious 12 year boy/girl living in a faraway village somewhere in the vast lands of some latin country, wanting to explore the wonders of 3D on his/her own, with a limited band connection.
In my mind, that curious kid should have all of the content I could give him/her in his/her own language.
...eventually he/she would grow up and learn how to interact in full English and pursue a career in 3D, if that's where the previous experimentation lead him/her. At that point, he/she will probably don't care if the UI or the manual is translated or not, but the fact that there was a Spanish UI and Manual, in first place, was what initially allowed him/her to freely explore it, taking away from the equation the language barrier.

Note: Obviously, the client will change with each language and locale; my main purpose was to expose that there can be different requirements each translation should meet.

Going to some of the points in the previous message:

I'd like to point out that, when you access the manual via Blender's context menu (one of Blender's greatest user assistance features!) you get taken to the language version of the manual you were currently using in the interface. So, if users are using the untranslated (English) UI they will be seeing the English version of the manual, and if they are using the translated version of the manual, they will be seeing the translated version of the manual. From a logical perspective, that translated version of the manual should make reference to what the user was seeing in the translated UI he/she came from.
To me, anything else doesn't make much sense.

Regarding screenshots:
Technically speaking, screenshots can be translated too (even if there isn't currently a handy system in place for translators to do so by themselves).
But even not being translated, they are still quite useful for users, as a way to make a visible connection between the original and translated terms of the UI.
In the text part of the manual they can find what they are seeing in the translated UI they are currently using, while in the screenshot they can also refer to the original terms (useful in case they were following an English tutorial or something).

Finally, I can't avoid seeing that thread is 9 years old, and the German version of the manual is currently at 3%. That could mean something too...

Hi! To me, personally, contributing time to the community (and that's what I've been doing for free for the last 13 years now, doing the full UI and just recently some of the manual Spanish translation, too) mainly makes sense if we aim to bring local users, an "as close as possible to" full native experience. Both UI and Manual. Who the client is: Specially in lots of parts of Latin America, you could make a whole life without needing to learn English at all, because the Spanish speaking territory is so vast, across the different countries, that you really don't get pushed by society to learn it until you are an adult, if you really need it. Moreover, formal education systems (which nowadays often include some English rudiments) in a lot of those countries often do not reach out to every remote village in those huge lands. So the mental image I use to define who "my client" is, as a translator for Blender, leads me to a curious 12 year boy/girl living in a faraway village somewhere in the vast lands of some latin country, wanting to explore the wonders of 3D on his/her own, with a limited band connection. In my mind, that curious kid should have all of the content I could give him/her in his/her own language. ...eventually he/she would grow up and learn how to interact in full English and pursue a career in 3D, if that's where the previous experimentation lead him/her. At that point, he/she will probably don't care if the UI or the manual is translated or not, but the fact that there was a Spanish UI and Manual, in first place, was what initially allowed him/her to freely explore it, taking away from the equation the language barrier. **Note:** Obviously, the client will change with each language and locale; my main purpose was to expose that there can be different requirements each translation should meet. Going to some of the points in the previous message: I'd like to point out that, when you access the manual via Blender's context menu (one of Blender's greatest user assistance features!) you get taken to the language version of the manual you were currently using in the interface. So, if users are using the untranslated (English) UI they will be seeing the English version of the manual, and if they are using the translated version of the manual, they will be seeing the translated version of the manual. From a logical perspective, that translated version of the manual should make reference to what the user was seeing in the translated UI he/she came from. To me, anything else doesn't make much sense. Regarding screenshots: Technically speaking, screenshots can be translated too (even if there isn't currently a handy system in place for translators to do so by themselves). But even not being translated, they are still quite useful for users, as a way to make a visible connection between the original and translated terms of the UI. In the text part of the manual they can find what they are seeing in the translated UI they are currently using, while in the screenshot they can also refer to the original terms (useful in case they were following an English tutorial or something). Finally, I can't avoid seeing that thread is 9 years old, and the German version of the manual is currently at 3%. That could mean something too...

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Marina_in3d_sea commented

2024-05-06 13:12:12 +02:00

A compromise proposal for the policy:
Keep the translated version from the localized UI, but add an English version in parentheses after it.
That way we don't sacrifice accessibility for people who don't feel comfortable with English or just prefer to get information in their native language. But it's still possible to search for information, understand screenshots, and tutorials better.

A compromise proposal for the policy: Keep the translated version from the localized UI, but add an English version in parentheses after it. That way we don't sacrifice accessibility for people who don't feel comfortable with English or just prefer to get information in their native language. But it's still possible to search for information, understand screenshots, and tutorials better.

❤️ 2

Damien Picard commented

2024-05-06 21:51:00 +02:00

I should clarify my position regarding the translation of screenshots: I’m not personally opposed to it, but it is currently unsupported. It would require:

making changes to the way the manual is built, to select the proper translated image, with the original one as fallback;
changing the naming / organisation of the images and directories;
hosting many more (potentially thousands or tens of thousands) images, which could be an additional burden on the servers;
translating the images themselves, which is not trivial because many of them were generated once as raster, without any sources available for regeneration AFAICT.

The last part would mean that for any screenshot containing UI elements or overlayed text, a blend file should be recreated, hosted and made available for other translators to reuse. Overlayed text or graphics can be achieved by recreating the image as SVG for simpler editing, but a lot of screenshots show the viewport with complex meshes, for which a good-quality and libre equivalent must be found or made.

So this change would require much deeper changes to the manual than simply removing a line in the translation guidelines. This is why I didn’t include it in this proposal, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be discussed.

I should clarify my position regarding the translation of screenshots: I’m not personally opposed to it, but it is currently unsupported. It would require: - making changes to the way the manual is built, to select the proper translated image, with the original one as fallback; - changing the naming / organisation of the images and directories; - hosting many more (potentially thousands or tens of thousands) images, which could be an additional burden on the servers; - translating the images themselves, which is not trivial because many of them were generated once as raster, without any sources available for regeneration AFAICT. The last part would mean that for any screenshot containing UI elements or overlayed text, a blend file should be recreated, hosted and made available for other translators to reuse. Overlayed text or graphics can be achieved by recreating the image as SVG for simpler editing, but a lot of screenshots show the viewport with complex meshes, for which a good-quality and libre equivalent must be found or made. So this change would require much deeper changes to the manual than simply removing a line in the translation guidelines. This is why I didn’t include it in this proposal, but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be discussed.

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Tamar Mebonia commented

2024-05-14 11:22:19 +02:00

A little late on response, I know, but my attention has been elsewhere for the last few weeks.

I very much take an issue with the argument "We expect our readers to use the English UI". For me the highlight of this whole thing for the last 2 years has been that time a Georgian user who doesn't speak English at all professed that switching to Georgian interface made it easier for him to use Blender, even though the interface translation is still incomplete and back then it was at 60% or something.

The whole point of translating UI was to eliminate or minimize the language barrier that keeps people away from this field.

And just so you know, English is weird and not at all intuitive for a native Kartvelian language speaker/reader, at least on a beginner level. We have minors who won't be proficient in English for a few years, grown-ups who never became proficient and never will. People of all ages living in areas where good tutors/schools are scarce or non-existent. The effort goes into giving them all a better chance. Having a fully understandable UI is paramount.

A little late on response, I know, but my attention has been elsewhere for the last few weeks. I very much take an issue with the argument "We expect our readers to use the English UI". For me the highlight of this whole thing for the last 2 years has been that time a Georgian user who doesn't speak English at all professed that switching to Georgian interface made it easier for him to use Blender, even though the interface translation is still incomplete and back then it was at 60% or something. The whole point of translating UI was to eliminate or minimize the language barrier that keeps people away from this field. And just so you know, English is weird and not at all intuitive for a native Kartvelian language speaker/reader, at least on a beginner level. We have minors who won't be proficient in English for a few years, grown-ups who never became proficient and never will. People of all ages living in areas where good tutors/schools are scarce or non-existent. The effort goes into giving them all a better chance. Having a fully understandable UI is paramount.

❤️ 3

Didier-Morandi commented

2024-05-14 15:09:50 +02:00

My two $:
If the software is available with an interface in French, its documentation and screenshots should be in French (as the 3DS Max one is), or it is useless.
As an example, search for "Synoptique" in the French manual (one of the windows of the French version of Blender), how many occurrences do you get back? None.

My two $: If the software is available with an interface in French, its documentation and screenshots should be in French (as the 3DS Max one is), or it is useless. As an example, search for "Synoptique" in the French manual (one of the windows of the French version of Blender), how many occurrences do you get back? None.

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Gabriel Gazzán commented

2024-05-14 18:35:28 +02:00

As an example, search for "Synoptique" in the French manual (one of the windows of the French version of Blender), how many occurrences do you get back? None.

I agree on that one. That entry was untranslated until a month ago, as you can see in the screenshot.
I can't guess why it was left with the English text...

> As an example, search for "Synoptique" in the French manual (one of the windows of the French version of Blender), how many occurrences do you get back? None. I agree on that one. That entry was untranslated until a month ago, as you can see in the screenshot. I can't guess why it was left with the English text... ![imagen](/attachments/89755abc-1f2c-4811-bb97-0804ac66f848)

imagen.png

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dupoxy referenced this issue

2024-05-15 21:24:42 +02:00

[Fr] The "Outliner" is actually a "Synoptique" #104770

Aaron Carlisle referenced this issue

2024-06-07 08:12:23 +02:00

[Fr] The "Outliner" is actually a "Synoptique" #104770

Aaron Carlisle added the

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