Anim: UI design for layered animation #113331

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Sybren A. Stüvel · 2023-10-06T11:54:52+02:00

Sybren A. Stüvel commented

2023-10-06 11:54:52 +02:00

Part of the Animation 2025 project is a new layered animation system. This needs changes to the UI as well, the design of which is tracked here.

Design / decide on what parts of the layered animation system is going to live inside of a single editor, and what kind of functionality is better to be split out into multiple editors.
Re-design the Timeline editor so it is less a copy of the Dopesheet, and has more unique features tailored to layered animation.
Create a new Animation editor that is tailored to layered animation.

Previous Attempts and Designs

#37512: Design Required: How can users choose what datablock/level to edit in the Action Editor?

Part of the _Animation 2025_ project is a new [layered animation system](https://code.blender.org/2023/07/animation-workshop-june-2023/). This needs changes to the UI as well, the design of which is tracked here. - [ ] Design / decide on what parts of the layered animation system is going to live inside of a single editor, and what kind of functionality is better to be split out into multiple editors. - [ ] Re-design the Timeline editor so it is less a copy of the Dopesheet, and has more unique features tailored to layered animation. - [ ] Create a new Animation editor that is tailored to layered animation. # Previous Attempts and Designs * [#37512: Design Required: How can users choose what datablock/level to edit in the Action Editor?](https://projects.blender.org/blender/blender/issues/37512)

Sybren A. Stüvel added the

labels 2023-10-06 11:54:52 +02:00

Sybren A. Stüvel added this to the Animation & Rigging project 2023-10-06 11:54:54 +02:00

Christoph Lendenfeld referenced this issue

2023-10-06 12:01:03 +02:00

Design Required: How can users choose what datablock/level to edit in the Action Editor? #37512

Nathan Vegdahl commented

2023-10-06 12:56:25 +02:00

Pulling over a relevant comment from @billrey in #37512:

Currently the Action Editor and Dopesheet displays the active object in it. In Presto @ Pixar it's the other way around: The animator adds channels to be animated, and those are the channels that shows up in the editor, not the channels of the selected object.

This also relates to what @cessen often talked about, which is the 'F-Curve-bag' concept. With such a concept, the user could specify a group of F-curves that might be considered to be relaed, and to have the editor display those, irespective of which datablocks they belong to. This is considered superior to the current 'Action' concept because Actions currently can't span multiple datablocks. With the F-Curve-Bag concept, in your example of disco lights, you could just create an F-Curve bag of those channels and work with them as a single action.

This mirrors some of the discussion we've been having with the Blender Studio animators, where it seems the primary purpose of animation layers would be f-curve/channel organization rather than animation layering per se.

Pulling over a relevant comment from @billrey in #37512: > Currently the Action Editor and Dopesheet displays the active object in it. In Presto @ Pixar it's the other way around: The animator adds channels to be animated, and those are the channels that shows up in the editor, not the channels of the selected object. > > This also relates to what @cessen often talked about, which is the 'F-Curve-bag' concept. With such a concept, the user could specify a group of F-curves that might be considered to be relaed, and to have the editor display those, irespective of which datablocks they belong to. This is considered superior to the current 'Action' concept because Actions currently can't span multiple datablocks. With the F-Curve-Bag concept, in your example of disco lights, you could just create an F-Curve bag of those channels and work with them as a single action. This mirrors some of the discussion we've been having with the Blender Studio animators, where it seems the primary purpose of animation layers would be f-curve/channel organization rather than animation layering per se.

Brad Clark commented

2023-10-06 15:52:11 +02:00

Interesting, be aware that listening to animators who don't already understand and work in Animation Layers workflows aren't the best reference for how to use animation layers:_ ... Animation layers as an organizational tool can be used that way but isn't the reason they exist and their functional needs for deforming existing animation, adding noise, offsets, replacing parts of existing animation and quickly adjusting or fitting animation to character in terms of re-targeting.

Most animators using layers don't create many and they bake them down quickly after keeping the list of layers short...workspace not a "collection" system for animation curves.

Interesting, be aware that listening to animators who don't already understand and work in Animation Layers workflows aren't the best reference for how to use animation layers:_ ... Animation layers as an organizational tool can be used that way but isn't the reason they exist and their functional needs for deforming existing animation, adding noise, offsets, replacing parts of existing animation and quickly adjusting or fitting animation to character in terms of re-targeting. Most animators using layers don't create many and they bake them down quickly after keeping the list of layers short...workspace not a "collection" system for animation curves.

👍 1

Gangneron commented

2023-10-08 14:49:39 +02:00

Hello, if I may, I think for convenience it would be nice to add a search system by collection name and not by animation name. This would make the task of animators easier when there are many elements to animate. This was added in the following commit : https://devtalk.blender.org/t/request-to-include-object-search-in-the-nla-editor-search-window/21464

❤️ 1

Nathan Vegdahl commented

2023-10-09 11:39:48 +02:00

@BClark

Animation layers as an organizational tool can be used that way but isn't the reason they exist and their functional needs for deforming existing animation, adding noise, offsets, replacing parts of existing animation and quickly adjusting or fitting animation to character in terms of re-targeting.

I totally agree that's the primary use case. And we shouldn't sacrifice functionality or workflow within that use case for the sake of using layers as an organizational tool.

But I'm increasingly convinced that organization is also an important use case for layers, and I don't think we'll need to make any significant sacrifices to support it well. The take system that we discussed at the 2023 workshop is one example of that.

@BClark > Animation layers as an organizational tool can be used that way but isn't the reason they exist and their functional needs for deforming existing animation, adding noise, offsets, replacing parts of existing animation and quickly adjusting or fitting animation to character in terms of re-targeting. I totally agree that's the primary use case. And we shouldn't sacrifice functionality or workflow within that use case for the sake of using layers as an organizational tool. But I'm increasingly convinced that organization is also an important use case for layers, and I don't think we'll need to make any significant sacrifices to support it well. The take system that we discussed at the 2023 workshop is one example of that.

Sybren A. Stüvel commented

2023-10-09 12:38:53 +02:00

@BClark :

Interesting, be aware that listening to animators who don't already understand and work in Animation Layers workflows aren't the best reference for how to use animation layers

I think it's important to listen to them, because most people animating in Blender will not be used to working with layers.

Most animators using layers don't create many and they bake them down quickly after keeping the list of layers short...workspace not a "collection" system for animation curves.

👍

@BClark : > Interesting, be aware that listening to animators who don't already understand and work in Animation Layers workflows aren't the best reference for how to use animation layers I think it's important to listen to them, because most people animating in Blender will not be used to working with layers. > Most animators using layers don't create many and they bake them down quickly after keeping the list of layers short...workspace not a "collection" system for animation curves. :+1:

Brad Clark commented

2023-10-09 17:52:13 +02:00

I am not saying don't listen to them, I am saying it is important to understand what they are worried about and asking for as an end result and not just directly solve the "I want to organize my layers" with more complexity.

Having a way to organize, collect/nest/manage the Layer NLA system IS important. I just had a "reaction" of not wanting to have to manage another organization system until it is needed...
How is it different than meta strips, what properties and influence if any do the collections for them have vs. directly letting layers be drag/dropped/nested under other layers, mute/solo etc.. it is like the armature bone group decisions x 10 so I didn't just want it to be a quick answer of sure we will just use collections...solved.

I am not saying don't listen to them, I am saying it is important to understand what they are worried about and asking for as an end result and not just directly solve the "I want to organize my layers" with more complexity. Having a way to organize, collect/nest/manage the Layer NLA system IS important. I just had a "reaction" of not wanting to have to manage another organization system until it is needed... How is it different than meta strips, what properties and influence if any do the collections for them have vs. directly letting layers be drag/dropped/nested under other layers, mute/solo etc.. it is like the armature bone group decisions x 10 so I didn't just want it to be a quick answer of sure we will just use collections...solved.

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Anim: UI design for layered animation #113331

Previous Attempts and Designs