Metal on Intel iMac with AMD - new questions #116247

New Issue

Daniel Brylka · 2023-12-16T10:30:54+01:00

Daniel Brylka commented

2023-12-16 10:30:54 +01:00

System Information
Operating system: Mac OS 14.2 (3,6 GHz 10-Core Intel Core i9)
Graphics card: AMD Radeon Pro 5700 XT 16 GB

Blender Version
Broken: 4.1 Alpha (16.12.)
Worked: 4.0 Beta (18.11.)

Short description of error
I am again back to 4-5 times longer render times with the workshop.blend file on my iMac system and
in the latest Blender 4.1 Alpha not even a recognisable image is rendered.

Exact steps for others to reproduce the error

Please read the last post of this thread:
#115134

Actually I have one question and one bug to report if you will call it like that.
I will try to explain.
After I got my iMac fixed and freshly installed a new system on the machine, Blender 4.0 (beta) was back to the normal render times of the workshop.blend file with around 28".

I always keep my system up to date and from time to time I check also the latest Alpha version to compare render times.
Now I am on macOS Sonoma 14.2 (latest) and Blender 4.0.2
The render times are back to over 2 minutes just like before I got the machine fixed. So it seems to be a software issue rather than a hardware issue.

My first question:
Can it be that by trying out new Blender versions that forces the system to re-compile the metal render kernels (partly or all sometimes) that maybe they overwrite each other and this can cause problems?
Is there a place on the file system where these render-kernels are stored? Could I flush the location and force in this way that the render kernels are compiled freshly like they were after the last time when I reinstalled the system?
I was looking on google to find anything how to flush or initialise the MTL-Compiler with no success.

So Blender 4.0.2 is giving me slow render times again which I believe should be fixable.

And my second question is about the 4.1 Alpha.
For a while now the workshop.blend file does not even render an image anymore. See the attached snapshots.
Here my question is, should I use a newer 4.0 blender render scene that I optimised for Blender 4.0 to test my system?
Can it be that the old workshop.blend is also a part of the problem?

Sorry for coming up with the same issue again and again. I know I need to ditch the intel iMac and replace it with an Apple Silicon machine that would fix a lot of the issues I guess.

I Uploaded 4 images:

Blender 4.1 result (better to say no render result anymore)
Blender 4.0.2 render result, but long render times (2 min. 12 secs instead of the "old" 28 seconds render time)
Building render kernels - why are sometimes all render kernels are compiled and sometimes only some?)
Console - MTL Compiler crashes (is there someone from Apple who could explain what happens here?)

**System Information** Operating system: Mac OS 14.2 (3,6 GHz 10-Core Intel Core i9) Graphics card: AMD Radeon Pro 5700 XT 16 GB **Blender Version** Broken: 4.1 Alpha (16.12.) Worked: 4.0 Beta (18.11.) **Short description of error** I am again back to 4-5 times longer render times with the workshop.blend file on my iMac system and in the latest Blender 4.1 Alpha not even a recognisable image is rendered. **Exact steps for others to reproduce the error** Please read the last post of this thread: https://projects.blender.org/blender/blender/issues/115134 Actually I have one question and one bug to report if you will call it like that. I will try to explain. After I got my iMac fixed and freshly installed a new system on the machine, Blender 4.0 (beta) was back to the normal render times of the workshop.blend file with around 28". I always keep my system up to date and from time to time I check also the latest Alpha version to compare render times. Now I am on macOS Sonoma 14.2 (latest) and Blender 4.0.2 The render times are back to over 2 minutes just like before I got the machine fixed. So it seems to be a software issue rather than a hardware issue. My first question: Can it be that by trying out new Blender versions that forces the system to re-compile the metal render kernels (partly or all sometimes) that maybe they overwrite each other and this can cause problems? **Is there a place on the file system where these render-kernels are stored? Could I flush the location and force in this way that the render kernels are compiled freshly like they were after the last time when I reinstalled the system?** I was looking on google to find anything how to flush or initialise the MTL-Compiler with no success. So Blender 4.0.2 is giving me slow render times again which I believe should be fixable. And my second question is about the 4.1 Alpha. For a while now the workshop.blend file does not even render an image anymore. See the attached snapshots. Here my question is, should I use a newer 4.0 blender render scene that I optimised for Blender 4.0 to test my system? Can it be that the old workshop.blend is also a part of the problem? Sorry for coming up with the same issue again and again. I know I need to ditch the intel iMac and replace it with an Apple Silicon machine that would fix a lot of the issues I guess. I Uploaded 4 images: - Blender 4.1 result (better to say no render result anymore) - Blender 4.0.2 render result, but long render times (2 min. 12 secs instead of the "old" 28 seconds render time) - Building render kernels - why are sometimes all render kernels are compiled and sometimes only some?) - Console - MTL Compiler crashes (is there someone from Apple who could explain what happens here?)

Blender_402_workshop.jpg

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Blender_41_workshop.jpg

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MTL compiler crashes.jpg

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building render kernel.jpg

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Daniel Brylka added the

labels 2023-12-16 10:30:55 +01:00

Michael Parkin-White commented

2023-12-16 13:38:38 +01:00

Usually Cycles kernels are cached in: /Users/<username>/.cache/cycles.

The possible path variants are:

$HOME/.cache/cycles or $XDG_CACHE_HOME/.cache/cycles.

I imagine deleting the kernels folder inside this should help verify if this is the root cause.

Usually Cycles kernels are cached in: `/Users/<username>/.cache/cycles`. The possible path variants are: `$HOME/.cache/cycles` or `$XDG_CACHE_HOME/.cache/cycles`. I imagine deleting the `kernels` folder inside this should help verify if this is the root cause.

Andrew commented

2023-12-16 14:57:55 +01:00

Interested to see if this fixes anything, as I am running into the same issues on my end with the same rig+OS.

Daniel Brylka commented

2023-12-16 17:24:11 +01:00

It's strange, I found the folder with around 900 files and 350 MB of data. I moved all the data to a different location.

After starting Blender 4.0.2, nothing happens, no kernels are compiled and the render times are still bad with over 2 minutes. (workshop.blend)

With Blender 4.1 Alpha the kernels are compiled but no files are appearing in the folder, it's still empty.
The version 4.1 is still not able to render the image of workshop.blend at all or even the default cube for that matter.

Usually after installing blender and starting it for the first time, even the UI takes a while to appear because the MTL-Compiler is triggered too (I guess for the viewport?) This is not happening either at the moment.

I wonder now where the new kernel files are stored right now.

It's strange, I found the folder with around 900 files and 350 MB of data. I moved all the data to a different location. After starting Blender 4.0.2, nothing happens, no kernels are compiled and the render times are still bad with over 2 minutes. (workshop.blend) With Blender 4.1 Alpha the kernels are compiled but no files are appearing in the folder, it's still empty. The version 4.1 is still not able to render the image of workshop.blend at all or even the default cube for that matter. Usually after installing blender and starting it for the first time, even the UI takes a while to appear because the MTL-Compiler is triggered too (I guess for the viewport?) This is not happening either at the moment. I wonder now where the new kernel files are stored right now.

Daniel Brylka commented

2023-12-16 17:56:57 +01:00

In the kernel folder is also a folder called "AMD_Radeon_Pro_5700_XT", which is my graphics card in the iMac.
Was Blender placing them there? And if yes, why don't they appear there again now after I moved them away to a different location?

I am confused.

And on my M1-MAX MBP there is a folder inside the kernels folder called "Apple_M1_Max", which makes sense, but where is this folder coming from? This is not a part of MacOS, right?

In the kernel folder is also a folder called "AMD_Radeon_Pro_5700_XT", which is my graphics card in the iMac. Was Blender placing them there? And if yes, why don't they appear there again now after I moved them away to a different location? I am confused. And on my M1-MAX MBP there is a folder inside the kernels folder called "Apple_M1_Max", which makes sense, but where is this folder coming from? This is not a part of MacOS, right?

Daniel Brylka referenced this issue

2023-12-17 13:42:01 +01:00

Blender 4.1 Alpha on MacOS Metal&Intel AMD cannot render the default cube depending on the Metal settings #116272

Nocollision commented

2023-12-18 23:02:05 +01:00

System Information
Operating system: Mac OS 12.6.9 (Intel i9 10940XE 14 Core 64 GB)
Graphics card 1: AMD Radeon RX 6950 XT 16 GB
Graphics card 2: AMD Radeon RX 6950 XT 16 GB

Blender Version
Worked: 3.6.0
Broken: 4.0.2 and 4.1 Alpha (18.12.)

Short description of error
There is a big regression on Cycles render time with AMD GPUs on macOS Monterey 12.6.9.
I get a 40% increase in render time in White Lands splash file in Blender 4.0.2 and 4.1.0 as well.
I get a 108% increase in render time in Scandlands splash file in Blender 4.0.2 and 120% in 4.1.0.

Blender 4.0.2 and Blender 4.1.0 are brand new. Vanilla setup, just activate in Metal both GPU.

What I noticed with Activity Monitor in GPU 1 is that the main GPU the one connected to the monitor peaks in 42% of usage in Blender 4.0.2 and 4.1.0 and it barely loads over 35%. It's performance is very very low compared to Blender 3.6.0 which peaks around 70%. The second GPU 2 (no connected to any monitor) always performs very good in all test and versions.I took screenshots and tested several times each version and demos.

Exact steps for others to reproduce the error

Download Blender 3.2 – White Lands and Blender 3.3 LTS – Scanlands and hit render in all 3 versions of Blender.

Screenshots of Blender 3.6.0
Blender 3.6.0 GPU Render 1 min 46 sec Scanlands

Activity Monitor shows a peak 72% of use in GPU 1

Blender 3.6.0 GPU Render 40 sec White Lands

Activity Monitor shows a peak 72% of use in GPU 1 as well

Now check the difference between both GPU in Blender 3.6.0. rendering Scanlands .Is not very big.

Now the issue in Blender 4.0.2
Screenshots of Blender 4.0.2
Blender 4.0.2 GPU Render 3 min 41 sec Scanlands 108 percent increase in render time.

Blender 4.0.2 GPU 1 Activity Monitor Scanlands Peaks 42%

Blender 4.0.2 GPU Render 56 sec White Lands 40 percent increase in render time.

Blender 4.0.2 GPU 1 Activity Monitor White Lands Peaks 72 but overall the performance is way lower than in Blender 3.6.0 I am guessing that as it has 3 million triangles less the regression is way lower.

Now check the difference between both GPU in Blender 4.0.2 and 4.1.0 is pretty much the same even a bit worse. Is HUGE

In Blender 4.1.0.
Blender 4.1.0 GPU Render 3 min 52 sec Scanlands 120 percent increase in render time.
Blender 4.1.0 GPU Render 55 sec White Lands 40 percent increase in render time.

Not going to upload the screenshot because I think it would not clarify anything at this point.

I now Apple is focused in Apple Silicon systems but I hope you guys can fix the issue.

Thank you very much.

**System Information** Operating system: Mac OS 12.6.9 (Intel i9 10940XE 14 Core 64 GB) Graphics card 1: AMD Radeon RX 6950 XT 16 GB Graphics card 2: AMD Radeon RX 6950 XT 16 GB **Blender Version** Worked: 3.6.0 Broken: 4.0.2 and 4.1 Alpha (18.12.) **Short description of error** There is a big regression on Cycles render time with AMD GPUs on macOS Monterey 12.6.9. I get a 40% increase in render time in White Lands splash file in Blender 4.0.2 and 4.1.0 as well. I get a 108% increase in render time in Scandlands splash file in Blender 4.0.2 and 120% in 4.1.0. Blender 4.0.2 and Blender 4.1.0 are brand new. Vanilla setup, just activate in Metal both GPU. What I noticed with Activity Monitor in GPU 1 is that the main GPU the one connected to the monitor peaks in 42% of usage in Blender 4.0.2 and 4.1.0 and it barely loads over 35%. It's performance is very very low compared to Blender 3.6.0 which peaks around 70%. The second GPU 2 (no connected to any monitor) always performs very good in all test and versions.I took screenshots and tested several times each version and demos. Exact steps for others to reproduce the error Download Blender 3.2 – White Lands and Blender 3.3 LTS – Scanlands and hit render in all 3 versions of Blender. **Screenshots of Blender 3.6.0** Blender 3.6.0 GPU Render 1 min 46 sec Scanlands ![Blender 3.6.0 GPU Render 1 min 46 sec Scanlands.png](/attachments/93820680-71b6-4e18-9c36-0947af8fa2b6) Activity Monitor shows a peak 72% of use in GPU 1 ![Blender 3.6.0 GPU 1 Activity Monitor Scanlands Peaks 72.png](/attachments/d64dd7e7-fabc-4b8d-beb9-c04ecb630e91) Blender 3.6.0 GPU Render 40 sec White Lands ![Blender 3.6.0 GPU Render 40 sec White Lands.png](/attachments/42e3bdc2-f5b9-4ca3-be9c-dff7bc9ae287) Activity Monitor shows a peak 72% of use in GPU 1 as well ![Blender 3.6.0 GPU 1 Activity Monitor White Lands Peaks 72.png](/attachments/977e5e2e-a5b6-4217-8672-59e4ae573363) Now check the difference between both GPU in Blender 3.6.0. rendering Scanlands .Is not very big. ![Blender 3.6.0 GPU 1 Use Rendering Scanlands.png](/attachments/c86beb94-514b-49d0-a704-019316cdaf20) ![Blender 3.6.0 GPU 2 Use Rendering Scanlands.png](/attachments/e24317e4-0736-439e-b432-b1de3679b54c) Now the issue in Blender 4.0.2 **Screenshots of Blender 4.0.2** Blender 4.0.2 GPU Render 3 min 41 sec Scanlands 108 percent increase in render time. ![Blender 4.0.2 GPU Render 3 min 41 sec Scanlands 108 percent increase.png](/attachments/6fa99b07-94d9-4452-ab58-67ae82d0e6b9) Blender 4.0.2 GPU 1 Activity Monitor Scanlands Peaks 42% ![Blender 4.0.2 GPU 1 Activity Monitor Scanlands Peaks 42.png](/attachments/76350b61-e7b9-4873-aa45-19193043bd80) Blender 4.0.2 GPU Render 56 sec White Lands 40 percent increase in render time. ![Blender 4.0.2 GPU Render 56 sec White Lands 40 percent increase.png](/attachments/08dab5ee-ee83-4ec8-9c1a-2b5176ef2f82) Blender 4.0.2 GPU 1 Activity Monitor White Lands Peaks 72 but overall the performance is way lower than in Blender 3.6.0 I am guessing that as it has 3 million triangles less the regression is way lower. ![Blender 4.0.2 GPU 1 Activity Monitor White Lands Peaks 72.png](/attachments/444b0aa4-7819-459b-83e3-622c1a62417d) **Now check the difference between both GPU in Blender 4.0.2 and 4.1.0 is pretty much the same even a bit worse. Is HUGE** ![Blender 4.0.2 GPU 1 Use Rendering Scanlands.png](/attachments/84086ade-8cc8-406d-bf26-0991f7bef3b4) ![Blender 4.0.2 GPU 2 Use Rendering Scanlands.png](/attachments/754f0594-e9c4-450b-8a6b-a0c0b9316d24) In Blender 4.1.0. Blender 4.1.0 GPU Render 3 min 52 sec Scanlands 120 percent increase in render time. Blender 4.1.0 GPU Render 55 sec White Lands 40 percent increase in render time. Not going to upload the screenshot because I think it would not clarify anything at this point. I now Apple is focused in Apple Silicon systems but I hope you guys can fix the issue. Thank you very much.

Blender 3.6.0 GPU Render 1 min 46 sec Scanlands.png

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Blender 4.0.2 GPU 1 Use Rendering Scanlands.png

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Blender 4.0.2 GPU 1 Activity Monitor White Lands Peaks 72.png

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Blender 3.6.0 GPU Render 40 sec White Lands.png

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Blender 3.6.0 GPU 2 Use Rendering Scanlands.png

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Blender 4.0.2 GPU 1 Activity Monitor Scanlands Peaks 42.png

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Blender 3.6.0 GPU 1 Use Rendering Scanlands.png

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Blender 3.6.0 GPU 1 Activity Monitor Scanlands Peaks 72.png

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Blender 4.0.2 GPU 2 Use Rendering Scanlands.png

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Blender 3.6.0 GPU 1 Activity Monitor White Lands Peaks 72.png

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Blender 4.0.2 GPU Render 3 min 41 sec Scanlands 108 percent increase.png

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Blender 4.0.2 GPU Render 56 sec White Lands 40 percent increase.png

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Pratik Borhade commented

2023-12-19 06:24:44 +01:00

@DanielBrylka , #114875 might be related, can you check? (maybe you have ~4k/5k monitor?)
BTW, the performance regression that you reported earlier from 3.6-4.0 is not fixed on Mac+AMD, Brecht has disabled the code to improve the situation but performance remains bad when those nodes are used: #112596 / #113904

@DanielBrylka , #114875 might be related, can you check? (maybe you have ~4k/5k monitor?) BTW, the performance regression that you reported earlier from 3.6-4.0 is not fixed on Mac+AMD, Brecht has disabled the code to improve the situation but performance remains bad when those nodes are used: #112596 / https://projects.blender.org/blender/blender/pulls/113904

Pratik Borhade added

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labels 2023-12-19 06:24:57 +01:00

Pratik Borhade commented

2024-02-14 10:40:48 +01:00

Hi, any updates?

Daniel Brylka commented

2024-02-14 10:56:10 +01:00

Hi,
I am working with Blender 4.02 (with Metal CPU & GPU enabled and quite poor performance) at the moment and I have 4.1 and 4.2 installed from some days ago.

I am a bit lost with the different threads you mentioned, but I have time to test at the moment. Please tell me what I can do.
As I am using a 5k iMac I always have the 5k retina resolution enabled by default.

From version 4.1 onwards I am unable to use the AMD 5700 XT 16GB for rendering at all. I so simple not getting any image out of Blender anymore.

Hi, I am working with Blender 4.02 (with Metal CPU & GPU enabled and quite poor performance) at the moment and I have 4.1 and 4.2 installed from some days ago. I am a bit lost with the different threads you mentioned, but I have time to test at the moment. Please tell me what I can do. As I am using a 5k iMac I always have the 5k retina resolution enabled by default. From version 4.1 onwards I am unable to use the AMD 5700 XT 16GB for rendering at all. I so simple not getting any image out of Blender anymore.

Nocollision commented

2024-02-21 13:05:06 +01:00

From version 4.1 onwards I am unable to use the AMD 5700 XT 16GB for rendering at all. I so simple not getting any image out of Blender anymore.

Black render. Exactly same issue as this.
#118466

> From version 4.1 onwards I am unable to use the AMD 5700 XT 16GB for rendering at all. I so simple not getting any image out of Blender anymore. Black render. Exactly same issue as this. #118466

Pratik Borhade commented

2024-02-22 04:43:32 +01:00

4.0 won't receive any updates further and the empty/black render is already mentioned in #118466 so closing this ticket for now.
If performance regression persists after #118466 is fixed, we can reopen this or create a new report.

4.0 won't receive any updates further and the empty/black render is already mentioned in #118466 so closing this ticket for now. If performance regression persists after #118466 is fixed, we can reopen this or create a new report.

Pratik Borhade closed this issue

2024-02-22 04:43:35 +01:00

Blender Bot added

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labels 2024-02-22 04:43:37 +01:00

Andree Markefors referenced this issue

2024-02-22 08:08:39 +01:00

On macOS, two W6800X Duos (4 cards) renders to black frame in Cylcles from 4.0.2 and later — work in 3.6.8 #118466