Usability issues with old group operators #53662

Open
opened 2017-12-30 02:11:59 +01:00 by ¿? · 84 comments

Blender Version
Broken: 2.79, 2.8x

Short description of error

When using linked objects, all the Group commands [Remove From Group / Remove From All Groups / Add Selected To Active Group / Remove Selected From Active Group] except [Create New Group (Ctrl G)], do nothing

Exact steps for others to reproduce the error

In my particular usage, I link a scene from one file into my main scene, afterwards I create a [New scene with Link Objects] from the Linked scene.

GroupsFail.blend
GroupsFail-MainScene.blend

I can Create Groups by selected objects, and I can remove the group from the object in the Object Properties tab but the only way to remove multiple groups is through python script or deleting the group itself.

Since this report is used to more generally handle issues with the old group operators and other reports have already been merged here, will also list these:

  • Ctrl G is placing new collections inside "Orphan Data"
**Blender Version** Broken: 2.79, 2.8x **Short description of error** When using linked objects, all the Group commands [Remove From Group / Remove From All Groups / Add Selected To Active Group / Remove Selected From Active Group] except [Create New Group (Ctrl G)], do nothing **Exact steps for others to reproduce the error** In my particular usage, I link a scene from one file into my main scene, afterwards I create a [New scene with Link Objects] from the Linked scene. [GroupsFail.blend](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F1601936/GroupsFail.blend) [GroupsFail-MainScene.blend](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F1601939/GroupsFail-MainScene.blend) I can Create Groups by selected objects, and I can remove the group from the object in the Object Properties tab but the only way to remove multiple groups is through python script or deleting the group itself. Since this report is used to more generally handle issues with the old group operators and other reports have already been merged here, will also list these: - Ctrl G is placing new collections inside "Orphan Data"
Author

Added subscriber: @Ebone

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Added subscribers: @mont29, @lichtwerk

Added subscribers: @mont29, @lichtwerk
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trying my luck here:

  • the mentioned group commands 'do nothing' because they check for selected_editable_bases [editable is not the case for linked stuff]
  • If you make those operators work on selected_bases [leave out the 'editable'] then your usecase becomes possible
  • removing the group from the Object Properties tab [X operator] dosent do the editable check afaics

However, it seems mandatory (I think) to distinct between groups defined in the sourcefile/linkedfile and groups defined locally.
e.g. even now it is possible to remove a group defined in the sourcefile/linkedfile from an object [which doesnt really make sense because that change will be lost on file reload - another 'bug' if you will]

From an uneducated first look a good solution would be to permit group operators to work on groups defined locally and prohibit to work on groups defined in the sourcefile/linkedfile, but need to have another look or chat with @mont29, maybe?

trying my luck here: - the mentioned group commands 'do nothing' because they check for selected_**editable**_bases [editable is not the case for linked stuff] - If you make those operators work on selected_bases [leave out the 'editable'] then your usecase becomes possible - removing the group from the Object Properties tab [X operator] dosent do the editable check afaics However, it seems mandatory (I think) to distinct between groups defined in the sourcefile/linkedfile and groups defined locally. e.g. even now it is possible to remove a group defined in the sourcefile/linkedfile from an object [which doesnt really make sense because that change will be lost on file reload - another 'bug' if you will] From an uneducated first look a good solution would be to permit group operators to work on groups defined locally and prohibit to work on groups defined in the sourcefile/linkedfile, but need to have another look or chat with @mont29, maybe?
Author

The reason I even bothered doing groups here is because when you link a scene, the groups aren't linked as well, so either I can link all the objects to the new scene, or I can link the empty-group instead.

The reason I even bothered doing groups here is because when you link a scene, the groups aren't linked as well, so either I can link all the objects to the new scene, or I can link the empty-group instead.

Added subscriber: @janb-1

Added subscriber: @janb-1

just had the same problem, it's a mess indeed, would be good to have a look. I agree it should be possible to add linked objects to local groups and forbid modifying groups coming from the linked file (and when user try to do so, it should say why it's not allowed)

just had the same problem, it's a mess indeed, would be good to have a look. I agree it should be possible to add linked objects to local groups and forbid modifying groups coming from the linked file (and when user try to do so, it should say why it's not allowed)

@lichtwerk actually, why is this bug not confirmed?

@lichtwerk actually, why is this bug not confirmed?

Added subscriber: @BenjaminNeumann

Added subscriber: @BenjaminNeumann

Just wanted to file a similar bug (I am using Blender 2.8 Alpha 2):

When selecting multiple object e.g. Lamp and Cube in the standard scene and I press Ctrl+G it prompts me to type a new collection name. But that's about it. I can enter something but hitting enter leaves to popup open and no new collection appears.

(I would fix it if you can gave me a hint where to look in the code)

Cheers

Just wanted to file a similar bug (I am using Blender 2.8 Alpha 2): When selecting multiple object e.g. Lamp and Cube in the standard scene and I press Ctrl+G it prompts me to type a new collection name. But that's about it. I can enter something but hitting enter leaves to popup open and no new collection appears. (I would fix it if you can gave me a hint where to look in the code) Cheers

Added subscriber: @brecht

Added subscriber: @brecht

@BenjaminNeumann, Ctrl+G creates collection not part of the scene, similar to groups in 2.8. If you want to create a collection in the scene, use M key.

The usability of this will be improved still.

@BenjaminNeumann, Ctrl+G creates collection not part of the scene, similar to groups in 2.8. If you want to create a collection in the scene, use M key. The usability of this will be improved still.

@brecht Okay that the 2 are different is known but still if you hit Ctrl+G it opens a UI and asks you for a collection. THAT is the weird part. So if I understand you it should only group them (as in 2.7) but NOT create a new colleciton.

@brecht Okay that the 2 are different is known but still if you hit Ctrl+G it opens a UI and asks you for a collection. THAT is the weird part. So if I understand you it should only group them (as in 2.7) but NOT create a new colleciton.

Added subscriber: @MaciejJutrzenka

Added subscriber: @MaciejJutrzenka

didn't collections replace the groups? i mean. they are kinda the same thing now? U could have unlimited amount of groups, and u could also instace groups.. and u could also have group inside group and u could also link stuff..

so why the hell we even have now group? i mean isn't that a collection now? i am lost.

didn't collections replace the groups? i mean. they are kinda the same thing now? U could have unlimited amount of groups, and u could also instace groups.. and u could also have group inside group and u could also link stuff.. so why the hell we even have now group? i mean isn't that a collection now? i am lost.

This comment was removed by @MaciejJutrzenka

*This comment was removed by @MaciejJutrzenka*
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@MaciejJutrzenka, @BenjaminNeumann : this task is specifically for group operations dealing with linked (from other blend files) objects.

Seeing a couple of other related tasks for grouping/collections in 2.8 (see e.g #58234, #58258, #58287), lets continue discussions there...

@MaciejJutrzenka, @BenjaminNeumann : this task is specifically for group operations dealing with **linked** (from other blend files) objects. Seeing a couple of other related tasks for grouping/collections **in 2.8** (see e.g #58234, #58258, #58287), lets continue discussions there...

Added subscribers: @MassimilianoPuliero, @ZedDB

Added subscribers: @MassimilianoPuliero, @ZedDB
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@brecht: not sure #59707 is the same issue? This report deals with group operators acting on groups/collections from linked files (doesnt seem to be the case for #59707...)
This is more for #55099, no?

@brecht: not sure #59707 is the same issue? This report deals with group operators acting on groups/collections from **linked** files (doesnt seem to be the case for #59707...) This is more for #55099, no?

@lichtwerk i think brecht, is just merging.. all collection related stuff to one place so it is easy to get control. as Blender 2.8 beta seams more like alpha not acctualy full feature beta as usually beta stands for that... there is a lot of stuff to be yet designed... so... it is a mess at least for me. and the nameing 2.8 as beta for me is confusing.

@lichtwerk i think brecht, is just merging.. all collection related stuff to one place so it is easy to get control. as Blender 2.8 beta seams more like alpha not acctualy full feature beta as usually beta stands for that... there is a lot of stuff to be yet designed... so... it is a mess at least for me. and the nameing 2.8 as beta for me is confusing.

Added subscriber: @Poulpator

Added subscriber: @Poulpator
Brecht Van Lommel was assigned by Sebastian Parborg 2019-06-06 12:07:01 +02:00

@brecht I can reproduce this, but I'm a bit unsure what the plan is for this. So feel free to change the prio etc.

@brecht I can reproduce this, but I'm a bit unsure what the plan is for this. So feel free to change the prio etc.
Brecht Van Lommel changed title from Add/Remove Groups Not Working with Linked Objects to Usability issues with old group operators 2019-06-06 14:18:10 +02:00
Brecht Van Lommel removed their assignment 2019-06-06 14:18:10 +02:00
Added subscribers: @ErikSelin, @dfelinto, @JacquesLucke, @WilliamReynish

We will tackle this at some point, but it won't necessarily be me.

We will tackle this at some point, but it won't necessarily be me.
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Added subscribers: @edisto, @nokipaike, @jenkm, @AbidMaqbool

As a suggestion for operations in outline -> view layer; isn't it easier to just create a new Collection then add the relative object as a child of that collection when the user hits ctrl + g. If the name doesn't exist then create new collection, if the name exist just add to already created collection in the outliner -> view layer.

As a suggestion for operations in outline -> view layer; isn't it easier to just create a new Collection then add the relative object as a child of that collection when the user hits ctrl + g. If the name doesn't exist then create new collection, if the name exist just add to already created collection in the outliner -> view layer.

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Added subscriber: @MineLucky

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This was already an issue with 2.7x, but now that groups became collections we need indeed to polish how these things work. For example, it is strange to "unlink" an object from a collection if the collection is linked to the scene (that will often make the object disappear altogether).

This was already an issue with 2.7x, but now that groups became collections we need indeed to polish how these things work. For example, it is strange to "unlink" an object from a collection if the collection is linked to the scene (that will often make the object disappear altogether).

Removed subscriber: @Flavigne

Removed subscriber: @Flavigne

Again not a bug, this needs design even before actual implementation...

Again not a bug, this needs design even before actual implementation...

Added subscriber: @vicy.1832

Added subscriber: @vicy.1832

the ctrl+g does make new collection now.. but it is invisible collection.. like it shows up in properties of an object and blender DNA etc... but dosn't showup in outliner... Another thing that is broken in Blender is that... when u have collections n stuff.. and u export it via alembic.. the hierarchy of the tree is not taken in to consideration it is all exported like there would be no collections.

why developers just don't replace. M shortcut with ctrl+g... or just make actual groups... that work correctly..

the ctrl+g does make new collection now.. but it is invisible collection.. like it shows up in properties of an object and blender DNA etc... but dosn't showup in outliner... Another thing that is broken in Blender is that... when u have collections n stuff.. and u export it via alembic.. the hierarchy of the tree is not taken in to consideration it is all exported like there would be no collections. why developers just don't replace. M shortcut with ctrl+g... or just make actual groups... that work correctly..
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Added subscribers: @Alaska, @dupoxy

Added subscribers: @Alaska, @dupoxy
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@dfelinto and @mont29 I was redirected here by @lichtwerk from task blender/documentation#76013.

In that task I asked the question

"Control-G" adds the selected objects to a new collection, but this collection is not added to the current scene. Is this a bug or working as intended?

I ask because I believe if this feature is working as intended, the information should be shared in the Blender manual. Without mention of this limitation in the manual, it can be confusing for new users. However, I understand that these keyboard shortcuts and the way things work will be re-designed in the near future. So I am hesitant in updating that part of the manual to describe the limitation if it's going to be fixed.

What are your thoughts on this. Should I update the manual to describe the limitation or leave it in it's current state so it doesn't need to be updated once this part of Blender has been reworked?

The page in the manual I'm referring too is /scene_layout/collections/collections (https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/scene_layout/collections/collections.html)

@dfelinto and @mont29 I was redirected here by @lichtwerk from task blender/documentation#76013. In that task I asked the question >"Control-G" adds the selected objects to a new collection, but this collection is not added to the current scene. Is this a bug or working as intended? I ask because I believe if this feature is working as intended, the information should be shared in the Blender manual. Without mention of this limitation in the manual, it can be confusing for new users. However, I understand that these keyboard shortcuts and the way things work will be re-designed in the near future. So I am hesitant in updating that part of the manual to describe the limitation if it's going to be fixed. What are your thoughts on this. Should I update the manual to describe the limitation or leave it in it's current state so it doesn't need to be updated once this part of Blender has been reworked? The page in the manual I'm referring too is /scene_layout/collections/collections (https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/scene_layout/collections/collections.html)

@Alaska you can update the manual for the current 2.83, if this is changed, it will already be 2.9x.

I wouldn't call it a "limitation", just describe how it works, mention another way to create a collection: "M" key (Move to Collection) > "New Collection".

@Alaska you can update the manual for the current 2.83, if this is changed, it will already be 2.9x. I wouldn't call it a "limitation", just describe how it works, mention another way to create a collection: "M" key (Move to Collection) > "New Collection".

Added subscriber: @StephenHamacek

Added subscriber: @StephenHamacek

As I Just mentioned in my merged report immediately above #76705, this seems to cause issues for rigid body workflow. The auto created 'Groups' which are effectively collections (RigidBodyWorld and RigidBodyConstraints) don't make it to the current scene by default, and I've ended up with all sorts of weirdness as a result. To me it seems that the groups should just be new collections within the current scene.

In other words, it's not just an issue for manually creating Collections or using linked groups.

As I Just mentioned in my merged report immediately above #76705, this seems to cause issues for rigid body workflow. The auto created 'Groups' which are effectively collections (RigidBodyWorld and RigidBodyConstraints) don't make it to the current scene by default, and I've ended up with all sorts of weirdness as a result. To me it seems that the groups should just be new collections within the current scene. In other words, it's not just an issue for manually creating Collections or using linked groups.

Should I create a new report for rigid bodies operations creating Collections that aren't linked to the scene?

Should I create a new report for rigid bodies operations creating Collections that aren't linked to the scene?
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@StephenHamacek I would personally refrain from making a new report. This task is left open as a task for developers to refer too about issues with the old groups system and how it interacts with the Blender 2.8X collections system and your issue falls under that.

Although, a Blender developer may have better insight on this than I do.

@StephenHamacek I would personally refrain from making a new report. This task is left open as a task for developers to refer too about issues with the old groups system and how it interacts with the Blender 2.8X collections system and your issue falls under that. Although, a Blender developer may have better insight on this than I do.

Ok thanks, looking forward to their thoughts on this.

Ok thanks, looking forward to their thoughts on this.

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Brecht merged this task;

https://developer.blender.org/T66086

But there is no mention here of orphaned data which is a usability paper-cut related to data lists. The user mentions 'collections' but this applies to orphan data whether or not it's in a collection.

I'm a senior general artist of 10 years using Blender entirely since the 2.80 alpha, but that one thing I didn't think about much was 'Orphaned Data', because I almost never retrieve deleted objects, I just flush the cache and move on.

I'd used the data API and blender file list plenty of times, and neither of them worked as I anticipated, which was very surprising given the sheer amount of editing you can do in those lists on almost every other aspect. I had to wade through hundreds of google results based on terms like 'Blender no objects in scene', 'Blender add object into scene', 'Blender object in data list but not in any scene', 'Blender object in blender file how to add to scene'. All answers are python related, moving objects between scenes, and 'unhiding' using the outliner context buttons. When a user has this much trouble finding info on an issue, why not make it more accessible to stumble upon?

After a fair amount of lost time, I finally noticed the object in the orphaned data list. I spent another 5 minutes fumbling through context menus BEFORE finding that I could simply drag it out of there.
Damn. What if I needed to grab both orphaned data AND scene based data at once? Well I'd need to go learn some python for that specific reason.

This is a paper-cut issue because even new users have an expectation of interoperability between similar editors and the animation workflow is a prime example.

You could re-time animation on that object in the dopesheet, action editor, graph editor and timeline. That's at least 4 different places to do the same thing. Yet out of the 3 outliner lists that contain orphaned data, only 1 of them allows you to restore that data.

I’m thinking, either the functionality of these lists should be merged with a filter for orphaned data, or the user should be able to drag data out in ALL those lists. If that’s not right, then at least make the option available in the right click context menu.

  • S
Brecht merged this task; https://developer.blender.org/T66086 But there is no mention here of orphaned data which is a usability paper-cut related to data lists. The user mentions 'collections' but this applies to orphan data whether or not it's in a collection. I'm a senior general artist of 10 years using Blender entirely since the 2.80 alpha, but that one thing I didn't think about much was 'Orphaned Data', because I almost never retrieve deleted objects, I just flush the cache and move on. I'd used the data API and blender file list plenty of times, and neither of them worked as I anticipated, which was very surprising given the sheer amount of editing you can do in those lists on almost every other aspect. I had to wade through hundreds of google results based on terms like 'Blender no objects in scene', 'Blender add object into scene', 'Blender object in data list but not in any scene', 'Blender object in blender file how to add to scene'. All answers are python related, moving objects between scenes, and 'unhiding' using the outliner context buttons. When a user has this much trouble finding info on an issue, why not make it more accessible to stumble upon? After a fair amount of lost time, I finally noticed the object in the orphaned data list. I spent another 5 minutes fumbling through context menus BEFORE finding that I could simply drag it out of there. Damn. What if I needed to grab both orphaned data AND scene based data at once? Well I'd need to go learn some python for that specific reason. This is a paper-cut issue because even new users have an expectation of interoperability between similar editors and the animation workflow is a prime example. You could re-time animation on that object in the dopesheet, action editor, graph editor and timeline. That's at least 4 different places to do the same thing. Yet out of the 3 outliner lists that contain orphaned data, only 1 of them allows you to restore that data. I’m thinking, either the functionality of these lists should be merged with a filter for orphaned data, or the user should be able to drag data out in ALL those lists. If that’s not right, then at least make the option available in the right click context menu. - S
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Is it too difficult to add an checkbox option in the keymap for "to Active scene" for "Collection to New"?
afbeelding.png
That way, the collection would be created in the current scene, as desired by default.

//I don't know about the issues from the other commands in the OP, since I don't use them, but they could be tackled in the same way.
I mean, currently this is left unaddressed like many other small papercuts, because there is no new design. But, the other way around would be to solve simple issues arising in current commands such as this one.//

Is it too difficult to add an checkbox option in the keymap for "to Active scene" for "Collection to New"? ![afbeelding.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F12796031/afbeelding.png) That way, the collection would be created in the current scene, as desired by default. //I don't know about the issues from the other commands in the OP, since I don't use them, but they could be tackled in the same way. I mean, currently this is left unaddressed like many other small papercuts, because there is no new design. But, the other way around would be to solve simple issues arising in current commands such as this one.//

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Reference: blender/blender#53662
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