FBX/OBJ Import - Show Backfaces makes object look wrong and is ON by default. #89630

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opened 2021-07-03 12:32:50 +02:00 by Ramil Roosileht · 29 comments

Ramil Roosileht commented 2021-07-03 12:32:50 +02:00

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System Information
Operating system: Windows-10-10.0.19041-SP0 64 Bits
Graphics card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.5.0 NVIDIA 466.11

Blender Version
Broken: version: 3.0.0 Alpha, branch: master, commit date: 2021-06-20 22:39, hash: 6afafc46f6
Worked: never

Short description of error
When importing an fbx (especially from external programs), which has a texture connected to the alpha channel, blender automatically does two things:

1. Changes Blend mode to Alpha Blend
2. Enables "Show Backface" option
   This in turn always looks like something is wrong with the mesh (see #86661 (Material setting "show_transparent_back" (Show Backface) gives weird results)) and you have to disable "Show Backface" option manually
   for all materials every time you import something that uses textures

Exact steps for others to reproduce the error

• Add a model
• Add a material
• Add a texture
• Save the texture
• Export an FBX
• Import an FBX

See video for example ILOTlJyCf9.mp4

**System Information** Operating system: Windows-10-10.0.19041-SP0 64 Bits Graphics card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.5.0 NVIDIA 466.11 **Blender Version** Broken: version: 3.0.0 Alpha, branch: master, commit date: 2021-06-20 22:39, hash: `6afafc46f6` Worked: never **Short description of error** When importing an fbx (especially from external programs), which has a texture connected to the alpha channel, blender automatically does two things: 1. Changes Blend mode to Alpha Blend 2. Enables "Show Backface" option This in turn always looks like something is wrong with the mesh (see #86661 (Material setting "show_transparent_back" (Show Backface) gives weird results)) and you have to disable "Show Backface" option manually for all materials every time you import something that uses textures **Exact steps for others to reproduce the error** - Add a model - Add a material - Add a texture - Save the texture - Export an FBX - Import an FBX See video for example [ILOTlJyCf9.mp4](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F10210362/ILOTlJyCf9.mp4)

Ramil Roosileht commented 2021-07-03 12:32:50 +02:00

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blender-admin commented 2021-07-03 12:32:50 +02:00

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#97588 was marked as duplicate of this issue

#97588 was marked as duplicate of this issue

blender-admin commented 2021-07-03 12:32:50 +02:00

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blender/blender-addons#88955 was marked as duplicate of this issue

blender/blender-addons#88955 was marked as duplicate of this issue

blender-admin commented 2021-07-03 12:32:50 +02:00

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#94966 was marked as duplicate of this issue

#94966 was marked as duplicate of this issue

blender-admin commented 2021-07-03 12:32:50 +02:00

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#91206 was marked as duplicate of this issue

#91206 was marked as duplicate of this issue

Scurest commented 2021-07-03 13:11:03 +02:00

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Henrik D. commented 2021-07-03 13:12:05 +02:00

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Henrik D. commented 2021-07-03 13:12:05 +02:00

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Don't you usually get transparent textures on models like grass etc? There is would be indeed correct to use alpha blend and show backfaces. The problem with rendering the transparent objects with solid geometry is that the faces in an object are not ordered back to front. You can change the order by using Randomize for example or using Sort Elements > View Z Axis to get correct order for rendering.

The default could also be changed to Alpha Hashed, because that mode does not have the same issues (but other issues like noise). Show Backfaces should be probably kept though, because of the grass example.

Don't you usually get transparent textures on models like grass etc? There is would be indeed correct to use alpha blend and show backfaces. The problem with rendering the transparent objects with solid geometry is that the faces in an object are not ordered back to front. You can change the order by using Randomize for example or using *Sort Elements > View Z Axis* to get correct order for rendering. The default could also be changed to Alpha Hashed, because that mode does not have the same issues (but other issues like noise). Show Backfaces should be probably kept though, because of the grass example.

Ramil Roosileht commented 2021-07-03 13:24:35 +02:00

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In #89630#1186505, @HDMaster84 wrote:
Don't you usually get transparent textures on models like grass etc? There is would be indeed correct to use alpha blend and show backfaces. The problem with rendering the transparent objects with solid geometry is that the faces in an object are not ordered back to front. You can change the order by using Randomize for example or using Sort Elements > View Z Axis to get correct order for rendering.

The default could also be changed to Alpha Hashed, because that mode does not have the same issues (but other issues like noise). Show Backfaces should be probably kept though, because of the grass example.

Transparent textures are used for everything, and there are times when you export something from other softwares and Blender just connects default texture's alpha by default.
I am not talking about removing the setting, but adjusting defaults so artists wouldn't need to change them manually. Be it Alpha Blend with Show Backfaces turned off or Alpha Hashed by default is not for me to decide, both work for me.
I asked Clement before in Blender Chat, if they are any reasons for these defaults. He told me that Show Backfaces turned on by default was to keep compatibility with Blender Internal, but that's not a deal breaker
Since we got rid of Blender Internal ages ago and it is time for 3.0, it should be fine to adjust defaults

> In #89630#1186505, @HDMaster84 wrote: > Don't you usually get transparent textures on models like grass etc? There is would be indeed correct to use alpha blend and show backfaces. The problem with rendering the transparent objects with solid geometry is that the faces in an object are not ordered back to front. You can change the order by using Randomize for example or using *Sort Elements > View Z Axis* to get correct order for rendering. > > The default could also be changed to Alpha Hashed, because that mode does not have the same issues (but other issues like noise). Show Backfaces should be probably kept though, because of the grass example. Transparent textures are used for everything, and there are times when you export something from other softwares and Blender just connects default texture's alpha by default. I am not talking about removing the setting, but adjusting defaults so artists wouldn't need to change them manually. Be it Alpha Blend with Show Backfaces turned off or Alpha Hashed by default is not for me to decide, both work for me. I asked Clement before in Blender Chat, if they are any reasons for these defaults. He told me that Show Backfaces turned on by default was to keep compatibility with Blender Internal, but that's not a deal breaker Since we got rid of Blender Internal ages ago and it is time for 3.0, it should be fine to adjust defaults

Daniel Salazar commented 2021-07-09 06:55:26 +02:00

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Daniel Salazar commented 2021-07-09 06:55:26 +02:00

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• 1

Alpha hashed, even if reliable, is incredibly noisy. I'd suggest copying what the GLTF IO does.

GLTF will leave it as Alpha Opaque if unused or Alpha Blend if used.

What could work is an importer option to set the type of Alpha

- 1 Alpha hashed, even if reliable, is incredibly noisy. I'd suggest copying what the GLTF IO does. GLTF will leave it as Alpha Opaque if unused or Alpha Blend if used. What could work is an importer option to set the type of Alpha

Philipp Oeser commented 2021-09-06 12:03:31 +02:00

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Philipp Oeser commented 2021-09-06 12:03:31 +02:00

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For reference, that drawing behavior is also reported in #86661 (Material setting "show_transparent_back" (Show Backface) gives weird results)

For reference, that drawing behavior is also reported in #86661 (Material setting "show_transparent_back" (Show Backface) gives weird results)

Philipp Oeser commented 2021-09-06 12:04:48 +02:00

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Philipp Oeser commented 2021-09-06 12:39:18 +02:00

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Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Needs Developer To Reproduce'

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Needs Developer To Reproduce'

Philipp Oeser commented 2021-09-06 12:39:18 +02:00

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Dont think this can be called a bug.

Note there has been some discussion in blender/blender-addons#83749 / ae82410329.
Note also that expectations regarding used / unused Alpha might differ (some might expect this to be hooked up by default, some may not).
Same for Show Backfaces (some might want this ON, some might want this OFF).
Personally, I wouldnt mind having options for these, but still, we'd need to define what the defaults should be.

This probably just needs a design decission.

Dont think this can be called a bug. Note there has been some discussion in blender/blender-addons#83749 / ae82410329. Note also that expectations regarding used / unused Alpha might differ (some might expect this to be hooked up by default, some may not). Same for `Show Backfaces` (some might want this ON, some might want this OFF). Personally, I wouldnt mind having options for these, but still, we'd need to define what the defaults should be. This probably just needs a design decission.

Jeroen Bakker commented 2022-01-17 13:58:02 +01:00

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Ramil Roosileht commented 2022-01-29 16:06:29 +01:00

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Any traction regarding this behavior? It's the same for OBJ as we now know.
As Jeroen mentioned in a linked closed task, "Show Backfaces" being ON by default means that Eevee and Cycles also look more different by default, which should be something to avoid.
I think we really need a new import setting for handling alpha in textures.

To add insult to injury, you can't use ALT+Click or "Copy To Selected" to turn "Show Backfaces" off or change Blend mode for all selected objects.
This means that unless user is willing to dabble into scripting, this behavior makes unnecessary assumptions that result in tedious monkey-work of fixing the imported models one-by one.

Any traction regarding this behavior? It's the same for OBJ as we now know. As Jeroen mentioned in a linked closed task, "Show Backfaces" being ON by default means that Eevee and Cycles also look more different by default, which should be something to avoid. I think we really need a new import setting for handling alpha in textures. To add insult to injury, you can't use ALT+Click or "Copy To Selected" to turn "Show Backfaces" off or change Blend mode for all selected objects. This means that unless user is willing to dabble into scripting, this behavior makes unnecessary assumptions that result in tedious monkey-work of fixing the imported models one-by one.

Omar Emara commented 2022-03-08 12:05:10 +01:00

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Philipp Oeser changed title from FBX Import - Show Backfaces makes object look wrong and is on by default. to FBX/OBJ Import - Show Backfaces makes object look wrong and is ON by default. 2022-04-26 14:12:12 +02:00

Philipp Oeser commented 2022-04-26 14:13:08 +02:00

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Ramil Roosileht commented 2022-04-26 22:01:36 +02:00

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This is still a problem. After importing anything that uses textures, I need to launch a script that would unset Blend Mode of all objects back to Opaque, because most of them don't need alpha.
I would really prefer to not have addons make guesses about textures alphas, or at least have a dropdown for disabling this behaviour

This is still a problem. After importing anything that uses textures, I need to launch a script that would unset Blend Mode of all objects back to Opaque, because most of them don't need alpha. I would really prefer to not have addons make guesses about textures alphas, or at least have a dropdown for disabling this behaviour

Clemens Holleis commented 2022-06-14 11:42:42 +02:00

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Clemens Holleis commented 2022-06-14 11:42:42 +02:00

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Until this issue gets fixed here is a python one-liner to turn off the show_transparent_back for all materials.

for material in bpy.data.materials: material.show_transparent_back=False 

just open a python console inside blender and hit enter twice

Bildschirmaufnahme 2022-06-14 um 11.41.26.mov

Until this issue gets fixed here is a python one-liner to turn off the `show_transparent_back` for all materials. ``` for material in bpy.data.materials: material.show_transparent_back=False ``` just open a python console inside blender and hit enter twice [Bildschirmaufnahme 2022-06-14 um 11.41.26.mov](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F13161570/Bildschirmaufnahme_2022-06-14_um_11.41.26.mov)

Chris commented 2022-10-03 13:01:39 +02:00

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Chris commented 2022-10-03 13:23:53 +02:00

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I hit this issue while importing some old meshes archived in trueSpace COB files. Managed to get a correct export to import in OBJ but the materials were inside out.
Each of these meshes had around 500-1000 materials, I sure wasn't going toggle this setting one at a time.

The python one liner is much appreciated but this really needs to be fixed or addressed in some way. Most users who hit this issue probably won't find this easy to deal with.

I hit this issue while importing some old meshes archived in trueSpace COB files. Managed to get a correct export to import in OBJ but the materials were inside out. Each of these meshes had around 500-1000 materials, I sure wasn't going toggle this setting one at a time. The python one liner is much appreciated but this really needs to be fixed or addressed in some way. Most users who hit this issue probably won't find this easy to deal with.

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Scurest referenced this issue 2023-03-06 22:18:51 +01:00

Addons that use node_shader_utils.py import alpha blended materials incorrectly #105512

Pratik Borhade referenced this issue 2023-03-07 06:50:01 +01:00

Addons that use node_shader_utils.py import alpha blended materials incorrectly #105512

Jesse Yurkovich commented 2023-03-07 07:21:05 +01:00

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Hmm, looks like I also lost time investigating and filing the duplicate issue listed above today.

I guess there's two issues here?

1. Scene importers don't know if they should hook something up to the material Alpha or not. So to be "safe" they hook it up which ends up triggering 2...
2. They use Alpha 'blend' but with show backfaces enabled

Item 1 may be unavoidable if the scene description doesn't convey the actual material parameters correctly. Unsure if FBX and co. support something as fine-grained like that.

As for 2, this yields incorrect results and goes against what's documented in the manual: https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/render/eevee/materials/settings.html#blend-mode

Show Backface
If enabled, all transparent fragments will be rendered. If disabled, only the front-most surface fragments will be rendered. Disable this option to ensure correct appearance of transparency from any point of view.

When using Alpha Blending this option should be disabled because with Alpha Blending, the order in which triangles are sorted is important.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So we're kind of stuck. As long as it uses the 'BLEND' method, the results will likely be incorrect.

The fix in question is a 1-liner in the Blender-provided node_shader_utils.py script:

diff --git a/scripts/modules/bpy_extras/node_shader_utils.py b/scripts/modules/bpy_extras/node_shader_utils.py
index 0c349084220..c5b1b1d4499 100644
--- a/scripts/modules/bpy_extras/node_shader_utils.py
+++ b/scripts/modules/bpy_extras/node_shader_utils.py
@@ -671,6 +671,7 @@ class ShaderImageTextureWrapper():
             tree.links.new(node_image.outputs["Alpha" if self.use_alpha else "Color"], self.socket_dst)
             if self.use_alpha:
                 self.owner_shader.material.blend_method = 'BLEND'
+                self.owner_shader.material.show_transparent_back = False

             self._node_image = node_image
         return self._node_image

Before	After proposed change

Hmm, looks like I also lost time investigating and filing the duplicate issue listed above today. I guess there's two issues here? 1. Scene importers don't know if they should hook something up to the material Alpha or not. So to be "safe" they hook it up which ends up triggering 2... 2. They use Alpha 'blend' but with show backfaces enabled Item 1 may be unavoidable if the scene description doesn't convey the actual material parameters correctly. Unsure if FBX and co. support something as fine-grained like that. As for 2, this yields incorrect results and goes against what's documented in the manual: https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/dev/render/eevee/materials/settings.html#blend-mode ``` Show Backface If enabled, all transparent fragments will be rendered. If disabled, only the front-most surface fragments will be rendered. Disable this option to ensure correct appearance of transparency from any point of view. When using Alpha Blending this option should be disabled because with Alpha Blending, the order in which triangles are sorted is important. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ``` So we're kind of stuck. As long as it uses the 'BLEND' method, the results will likely be incorrect. The fix in question is a 1-liner in the Blender-provided `node_shader_utils.py` script: ```diff diff --git a/scripts/modules/bpy_extras/node_shader_utils.py b/scripts/modules/bpy_extras/node_shader_utils.py index 0c349084220..c5b1b1d4499 100644 --- a/scripts/modules/bpy_extras/node_shader_utils.py +++ b/scripts/modules/bpy_extras/node_shader_utils.py @@ -671,6 +671,7 @@ class ShaderImageTextureWrapper(): tree.links.new(node_image.outputs["Alpha" if self.use_alpha else "Color"], self.socket_dst) if self.use_alpha: self.owner_shader.material.blend_method = 'BLEND' + self.owner_shader.material.show_transparent_back = False self._node_image = node_image return self._node_image ``` | Before | After proposed change | | -- | -- | |  |  |

Jeroen Bakker commented 2023-03-07 07:29:00 +01:00

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can you create a pull request. solution seems fine.

can you create a pull request. solution seems fine.

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Jesse Yurkovich referenced a pull request that will close this issue 2023-03-09 06:29:43 +01:00

Fix #89630: Hide backfaces when using using the "Alpha Blend" blend method #105585

Jesse Yurkovich commented 2023-03-09 06:33:15 +01:00

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I made PR #105585 which addresses the mentioned python script as well as the new OBJ importer. USD has the same "bug" but is being worked on as part of a different PR still under discussion.

I don't have many "real" assets here myself to try so I left the PR as a WIP. I'd appreciate any and all testing folks can do with their own files to see if this is good and safe.

I made PR #105585 which addresses the mentioned python script as well as the new OBJ importer. USD has the same "bug" but is being worked on as part of a different PR still under discussion. I don't have many "real" assets here myself to try so I left the PR as a WIP. I'd appreciate any and all testing folks can do with their own files to see if this is good and safe.

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Scurest commented 2023-03-09 09:02:21 +01:00

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That solves the most important case, which is when the alpha texture is all 1 so the material is morally opaque, which happens a lot with OBJ/FBX.

The downside is there are times when multiple layers are supposed to be visible. For example:

The other alternative, Alpha Hashed, always gives (an approximation to) the correct result. The downside is it's noisy.

That solves the most important case, which is when the alpha texture is all 1 so the material is morally opaque, which happens a lot with OBJ/FBX. The downside is there are times when multiple layers are supposed to be visible. For example:  The other alternative, Alpha Hashed, always gives (an approximation to) the correct result. The downside is it's noisy.

ChristmasExample.jpg

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Jesse Yurkovich referenced this issue from a commit 2023-03-16 00:10:39 +01:00

Fix #89630: Hide backfaces when using using the "Alpha Blend" blend method

Jesse Yurkovich closed this issue 2023-03-16 00:10:40 +01:00

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Render Pipeline

  

Interest

Sculpt, Paint & Texture

  

Interest

Text Editor

  

Interest

Translations

  

Interest

Triaging

  

Interest

Undo

  

Interest

USD

  

Interest

User Interface

  

Interest

UV Editing

  

Interest

VFX & Video

  

Interest

Video Sequencer

  

Interest

Virtual Reality

  

Interest

Vulkan

  

Interest

Wayland

Issues relating to Wayland windowing support.

  

Interest

Workbench

  

Interest: X11

Issues relating to Xorg/X11 support.

  

Legacy

Blender 2.8 Project

  

Legacy

Milestone 1: Basic, Local Asset Browser

  

Legacy

OpenGL Error

  

Meta

Good First Issue

  

Meta

Papercut

  

Meta

Retrospective

  

Meta

Security

Issues relating to security: https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Process/Vulnerability_Reports

  

Module

Animation & Rigging

  

Module

Core

  

Module

Development Management

  

Module

EEVEE & Viewport

  

Module

Grease Pencil

  

Module

Modeling

  

Module

Nodes & Physics

  

Module

Pipeline, Assets & IO

  

Module

Platforms, Builds & Tests

  

Module

Python API

  

Module

Render & Cycles

  

Module

Sculpt, Paint & Texture

  

Module

Triaging

  

Module

User Interface

  

Module

VFX & Video

  

Platform

FreeBSD

  

Platform

Linux

  

Platform

macOS

  

Platform

Windows

  

Priority

High

  

Priority

Low

  

Priority

Normal

  

Priority

Unbreak Now!

  

Status

Archived

  

Status

Confirmed

  

Status

Duplicate

  

Status

Needs Info from Developers

  

Status

Needs Information from User

  

Status

Needs Triage

  

Status

Resolved

  

Type

Bug

  

Type

Design

  

Type

Known Issue

  

Type

Patch

  

Type

Report

  

Type

To Do

No Label

Interest

Alembic

Interest

Animation & Rigging

Interest

Asset Browser

Interest

Asset Browser Project Overview

Interest

Audio

Interest

Automated Testing

Interest

Blender Asset Bundle

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BlendFile

Interest

Collada

Interest

Compatibility

Interest

Compositing

Interest

Core

Interest

Cycles

Interest

Dependency Graph

Interest

Development Management

Interest

EEVEE

Interest

EEVEE & Viewport

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Freestyle

Interest

Geometry Nodes

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Grease Pencil

Interest

ID Management

Interest

Images & Movies

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Import Export

Interest

Line Art

Interest

Masking

Interest

Metal

Interest

Modeling

Interest

Modifiers

Interest

Motion Tracking

Interest

Nodes & Physics

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OpenGL

Interest

Overlay

Interest

Overrides

Interest

Performance

Interest

Physics

Interest

Pipeline, Assets & IO

Interest

Platforms, Builds & Tests

Interest

Python API

Interest

Render & Cycles

Interest

Render Pipeline

Interest

Sculpt, Paint & Texture

Interest

Text Editor

Interest

Translations

Interest

Triaging

Interest

Undo

Interest

USD

Interest

User Interface

Interest

UV Editing

Interest

VFX & Video

Interest

Video Sequencer

Interest

Virtual Reality

Interest

Vulkan

Interest

Wayland

Interest

Workbench

Interest: X11

Legacy

Blender 2.8 Project

Legacy

Milestone 1: Basic, Local Asset Browser

Legacy

OpenGL Error

Meta

Good First Issue

Meta

Papercut

Meta

Retrospective

Meta

Security

Module

Animation & Rigging

Module

Core

Module

Development Management

Module

EEVEE & Viewport

Module

Grease Pencil

Module

Modeling

Module

Nodes & Physics

Module

Pipeline, Assets & IO

Module

Platforms, Builds & Tests

Module

Python API

Module

Render & Cycles

Module

Sculpt, Paint & Texture

Module

Triaging

Module

User Interface

Module

VFX & Video

Platform

FreeBSD

Platform

Linux

Platform

macOS

Platform

Windows

Priority

High

Priority

Low

Priority

Normal

Priority

Unbreak Now!

Status

Archived

Status

Confirmed

Status

Duplicate

Status

Needs Info from Developers

Status

Needs Information from User

Status

Needs Triage

Status

Resolved

Type

Bug

Type

Design

Type

Known Issue

Type

Patch

Type

Report

Type

To Do

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Reference: blender/blender#89630

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