Animation: Remove collection hotkeys from pose mode #105120

Merged
Christoph Lendenfeld merged 2 commits from ChrisLend/blender:remove_collection_hotkeys into main 2023-05-26 09:04:06 +02:00

We have been chatting in the Animation&Rigging module meeting that the collection hotkeys (1, 2, 3 etc.) in Pose Mode are unwanted and could be replaced with something more useful.
This patch only removes the hotkeys, we can later decide what should be in their place.

We have been chatting in the Animation&Rigging module meeting that the collection hotkeys (1, 2, 3 etc.) in Pose Mode are unwanted and could be replaced with something more useful. This patch only removes the hotkeys, we can later decide what should be in their place.
Christoph Lendenfeld added 1 commit 2023-02-23 12:05:26 +01:00
Christoph Lendenfeld added the
Module
Animation & Rigging
label 2023-02-23 12:21:55 +01:00

I thought this was useful for similar reasons as it is in object mode. To quickly show/hide one of multiple characters, the background, props, etc.

I thought this was useful for similar reasons as it is in object mode. To quickly show/hide one of multiple characters, the background, props, etc.
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Member

@brecht in theory yes, but you hardly ever know the order the collections are in the scene, so you need to check in the outliner anyway at which point it's easier to click on the eye icon
Usually what happens is you press one of those numbers by accident and everything disappears.

@brecht in theory yes, but you hardly ever know the order the collections are in the scene, so you need to check in the outliner anyway at which point it's easier to click on the eye icon Usually what happens is you press one of those numbers by accident and everything disappears.

That's an argument against this feature in general though, not about animation specifically.

It indeed has issues, though some users rely on it anyway. If an animator has a convention for setting up their shots with collections in a particular way this can work well.

I would not preemptively remove this until there is something for those keys to do instead.

That's an argument against this feature in general though, not about animation specifically. It indeed has issues, though some users rely on it anyway. If an animator has a convention for setting up their shots with collections in a particular way this can work well. I would not preemptively remove this until there is something for those keys to do instead.
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I'd argue it's a special case for pose mode because the workflow is usually

  • set up your scene
  • go to pose mode and stay there to animate

usually you are not jumping around that much like e.g. with modelling

I think removing it is already an improvement, and we can then make a lengthy design task to figure out what to do with the available space. I think that there will be a lot more discussion around what to add.

But I get your point. I'll ask around outside the module as well to see if anyone is unhappy about this removal

I'd argue it's a special case for pose mode because the workflow is usually * set up your scene * go to pose mode and stay there to animate usually you are not jumping around that much like e.g. with modelling I think removing it is already an improvement, and we can then make a lengthy design task to figure out what to do with the available space. I think that there will be a lot more discussion around what to add. But I get your point. I'll ask around outside the module as well to see if anyone is unhappy about this removal

I've posted polls on Mastodon and Twitter. Curious what people will repond.

I've posted polls on [Mastodon](https://mastodon.art/@sybren/109918973373654183) and [Twitter](https://twitter.com/sastuvel/status/1629049598764371972?s=20). Curious what people will repond.

I'd argue it's a special case for pose mode because the workflow is usually

  • set up your scene
  • go to pose mode and stay there to animate

usually you are not jumping around that much like e.g. with modelling

To me this is an argument for why setting up your scene for quick collection switching is especially useful in pose mode.

But if the mechanism to do so is not liked by the majority of Blender of users, I suggest we remove it from the keymap entirely, not only in pose mode.

> I'd argue it's a special case for pose mode because the workflow is usually > * set up your scene > * go to pose mode and stay there to animate > > usually you are not jumping around that much like e.g. with modelling To me this is an argument for why setting up your scene for quick collection switching is especially useful in pose mode. But if the mechanism to do so is not liked by the majority of Blender of users, I suggest we remove it from the keymap entirely, not only in pose mode.

For context, this was also discussed in yesterday's module meeting.

For context, this was also discussed in [yesterday's module meeting](https://devtalk.blender.org/t/2023-02-23-animation-rigging-meeting/27757#patch-review-decision-time-5).
Sybren A. Stüvel added this to the 4.0 milestone 2023-03-10 11:34:43 +01:00
Christoph Lendenfeld added 1 commit 2023-05-25 12:13:35 +02:00
Christoph Lendenfeld merged commit adef3a4556 into main 2023-05-26 09:04:06 +02:00
Christoph Lendenfeld deleted branch remove_collection_hotkeys 2023-05-26 09:04:07 +02:00

This was merged without approval or an explanation, even though the discussion here did not come to a conclusion. If it was decided elsewhere, please add that information here.

I still think we should remove either neither or both pose and object mode shortcuts, not do this halfway change.

This was merged without approval or an explanation, even though the discussion here did not come to a conclusion. If it was decided elsewhere, please add that information here. I still think we should remove either neither or both pose and object mode shortcuts, not do this halfway change.
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my bad, this has been discussed so long ago I didn't realize that there was no reviewer.
It has been discussed in the A&R module meeting though and I quote from Sybrens notes

Christoph: removing collection hotkeys from pose mode?

#105120: Animation: Remove collection hotkeys from pose mode 1
Module is in favour. The people present either never used it, or got confused and disliked the numbers.
For bigger changes to the keymap we should involve the UI module. After the meeting Sybren checked with Pablo Vazquez and Julien Kaspar (on Blender Chat), and there are people who do use them for collection switching. For removing them from pose mode we have Pablo’s blessing. He did mention this could be a big change to people’s workflows, so might be good to hold on until Blender 4.0. Development of that version will start in 3 months 1 anyway.
my bad, this has been discussed so long ago I didn't realize that there was no reviewer. It has been discussed in the A&R module meeting though and I quote from Sybrens notes Christoph: removing collection hotkeys from pose mode? #105120: Animation: Remove collection hotkeys from pose mode 1 Module is in favour. The people present either never used it, or got confused and disliked the numbers. For bigger changes to the keymap we should involve the UI module. After the meeting Sybren checked with Pablo Vazquez and Julien Kaspar (on Blender Chat), and there are people who do use them for collection switching. For removing them from pose mode we have Pablo’s blessing. He did mention this could be a big change to people’s workflows, so might be good to hold on until Blender 4.0. Development of that version will start in 3 months 1 anyway.
Howard Trickey referenced this issue from a commit 2023-05-29 02:51:36 +02:00
First-time contributor

@brecht in theory yes, but you hardly ever know the order the collections are in the scene, so you need to check in the outliner anyway at which point it's easier to click on the eye icon
Usually what happens is you press one of those numbers by accident and everything disappears.

@ChrisLend
@brecht
This is because it wasnt designed properly during 2.8 redesign.
The demand for realtime control still exists in massive cluttered scenes but it has never been satisfied. The entire system was abandoned in a barely usable form.

> @brecht in theory yes, but you hardly ever know the order the collections are in the scene, so you need to check in the outliner anyway at which point it's easier to click on the eye icon > Usually what happens is you press one of those numbers by accident and everything disappears. @ChrisLend @brecht This is because it wasnt designed properly during 2.8 redesign. The demand for realtime control still exists in massive cluttered scenes but it has never been satisfied. The entire system was abandoned in a barely usable form.

@1D_Inc yes, it's known that 2.8 wasn't perfect, and it's known there are lmitations today in Blender. Rubbing it in doesn't help anyone.

@1D_Inc yes, it's known that 2.8 wasn't perfect, and it's known there are lmitations today in Blender. Rubbing it in doesn't help anyone.
First-time contributor

@dr.sybren
It is not specifically about 2.8, it is about development style in general, when one developer corrupts some functionality being completely out of a context, and the other cuts it out as corrupted instead of fixing.

The situation with polls is essential.
In short, devs didnt succeed to design and promote a usable system, and then they ask people if they like it, having predictable results.

@dr.sybren It is not specifically about 2.8, it is about development style in general, when one developer corrupts some functionality being completely out of a context, and the other cuts it out as corrupted instead of fixing. The situation with polls is essential. In short, devs didnt succeed to design and promote a usable system, and then they ask people if they like it, having predictable results.
First-time contributor

I'm discovering this issue on upgrading to 4.0 and getting a handle on the new bone collections. My perspective is as someone that is primarily a rigger.

I used hotkeys to control armature layer visibility frequently. They were among my most used hotkeys. I knew exactly which numbers corresponded to which layers because I was the one that put the bones on those layers, via numbered hotkeys. My armature layers are often very fluid, as I need to be able to create relationships between bones that are, very often, located in the exact same place, may not yet have descriptive names, and where distinguishing by color or shape is not yet appropriate as it will obscure other essential information. The layers that I create do not necessarily represent the final layers that I deliver, but instead, whichever layers I need to simplify my operations and testing for the next few minutes.

My experience is that many Blender users don't use very many hotkeys, but that when they do, they should see their throughput increase dramatically. While animators that used my rigs may not have used hotkeys to control layer visibility, I encouraged them to do so, and include packed text files with bone layer names and numbers to make it easier for them to do so. I would also organize layers intentionally, so that even if they didn't read or understand the text files, if they just started on layer 1 and worked their way down, they'd probably be working in the order in which they'd like to work (gross manipulations -> tweaks.)

So I know that as a rigger, rapid control of layer/collection visibility is important; and even if animators don't take advantage of this, they would be working faster if they did.

This wouldn't be as much of a problem if I could just replace these hotkeys, but instead, I can no longer find any keybindable operations to control collection visibility in 4.0. What I see instead is that we have two redundant operations to move bones to collections, "bone collections" and "move to collection" but no way to rapidly control visibility of collections.

Since a lot of talk here is about the parallels with object collections, I want to add that I also use object collection visibility hotkeys frequently. It's true that the move from layers to collections complicated these hotkeys (I made a "paper cuts" entry about the lack of parallelism with numbers to move to collection and display collection) but I have found my way around these issues, sometimes just by prepending a number onto the names of my collections. The time I spend doing this is hugely worth it for the time I save on being able to use collection hotkeys easily. If other users aren't using hotkeys because they have trouble associating numbers with collections (of either bones or objects), then this is a simple way to ease that association, and could be done automatically by Blender.

I'm discovering this issue on upgrading to 4.0 and getting a handle on the new bone collections. My perspective is as someone that is primarily a rigger. I used hotkeys to control armature layer visibility frequently. They were among my most used hotkeys. I knew exactly which numbers corresponded to which layers because I was the one that put the bones on those layers, via numbered hotkeys. My armature layers are often very fluid, as I need to be able to create relationships between bones that are, very often, located in the exact same place, may not yet have descriptive names, and where distinguishing by color or shape is not yet appropriate as it will obscure other essential information. The layers that I create do not necessarily represent the final layers that I deliver, but instead, whichever layers I need to simplify my operations and testing for the next few minutes. My experience is that many Blender users don't use very many hotkeys, but that when they do, they should see their throughput increase dramatically. While animators that used my rigs may not have used hotkeys to control layer visibility, I encouraged them to do so, and include packed text files with bone layer names and numbers to make it easier for them to do so. I would also organize layers intentionally, so that even if they didn't read or understand the text files, if they just started on layer 1 and worked their way down, they'd probably be working in the order in which they'd like to work (gross manipulations -> tweaks.) So I know that as a rigger, rapid control of layer/collection visibility is important; and even if animators don't take advantage of this, they would be working faster if they did. This wouldn't be as much of a problem if I could just replace these hotkeys, but instead, I can no longer find any keybindable operations to control collection visibility in 4.0. What I see instead is that we have two redundant operations to move bones to collections, "bone collections" and "move to collection" but no way to rapidly control visibility of collections. Since a lot of talk here is about the parallels with object collections, I want to add that I also use object collection visibility hotkeys frequently. It's true that the move from layers to collections complicated these hotkeys (I made a "paper cuts" entry about the lack of parallelism with numbers to move to collection and display collection) but I have found my way around these issues, sometimes just by prepending a number onto the names of my collections. The time I spend doing this is hugely worth it for the time I save on being able to use collection hotkeys easily. If other users aren't using hotkeys because they have trouble associating numbers with collections (of either bones or objects), then this is a simple way to ease that association, and could be done automatically by Blender.
First-time contributor

I used hotkeys to control armature layer visibility frequently.

This is because complex rigging belongs to multiref-related workflows, and quick access slots system (slots UI and hotkeys) is supposed to solve it across the entire application.
If you feel need in using such a system that means that you deal with stuff which is more complex than average simplified method allow to handle.

This system is typically used for real-time combinatorial navigation of complex and visually confusing structures, which is an industry level demand which has been solved exclusively in Blender.

> I used hotkeys to control armature layer visibility frequently. This is because complex rigging belongs to multiref-related workflows, and quick access slots system (slots UI and hotkeys) is supposed to solve it across the entire application. If you feel need in using such a system that means that you deal with stuff which is more complex than average simplified method allow to handle. This system is typically used for real-time combinatorial navigation of complex and visually confusing structures, which is an industry level demand which has been solved exclusively in Blender.
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Reference: blender/blender#105120
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