UI: Topbar Menu Changes #106654

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Harley Acheson wants to merge 1 commits from Harley/blender:TopbarMenus into main

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A number of proposed changes to the Topbar menus to make them a bit
more organized, safer, cleaner, discoverable, and easier to use.


Note that this PR is not based on an approved design. This can be used for testing, but most review and comments should probably be directed first to the design doc: #106654.

The following represents the overall consensus after about 2 years of discussions on our old phab. I'm hoping we can discuss this again here with the (hopeful) goal of incorporating these changes into Blender 4.0

First the App (blender logo) menu loses the "Splash" and "About" items to the Help Menu. The "System" submenu expands out. "Install Application Template" moves to File Menu. This leaves it with only items that most new users can safely ignore at first.

MenuApp.png

Some "File" menu items move a bit, with all the "Loading" and "Saving" items grouped. This splits "Import" and "Export" which can be easily miss-selected and cause damage. This also leaves it shorter to better add #104678.

image.png

The File "New" submenu gets an item to install new templates, moved from "App"....

MenuNew.png

The Edit menu only changes slightly, with "Undo History" and "Adjust Last Operation" moving a bit.

MenuEdit.png

The Help menu mostly getting a cleanup with some icons changed and removed, and addition of "Splash" and "About"

HelpMenu3.png

A number of proposed changes to the Topbar menus to make them a bit more organized, safer, cleaner, discoverable, and easier to use. --- Note that this PR is not based on an approved design. This can be used for testing, but most review and comments should probably be directed first to the design doc: #106654. The following represents the overall consensus after about 2 years of discussions on our old phab. I'm hoping we can discuss this again here with the (hopeful) goal of incorporating these changes into Blender 4.0 First the App (blender logo) menu loses the "Splash" and "About" items to the Help Menu. The "System" submenu expands out. "Install Application Template" moves to File Menu. This leaves it with only items that most new users can safely ignore at first. ![MenuApp.png](/attachments/4fb5b939-6525-478e-bfa3-39ffee0a8883) Some "File" menu items move a bit, with all the "Loading" and "Saving" items grouped. This splits "Import" and "Export" which can be easily miss-selected and cause damage. This also leaves it shorter to better add #104678. ![image.png](/attachments/16db67d2-4bca-406a-aa03-973535af4992) The File "New" submenu gets an item to install new templates, moved from "App".... ![MenuNew.png](/attachments/89cfe8ea-8fe1-498c-902d-31c8f5d016a4) The Edit menu only changes slightly, with "Undo History" and "Adjust Last Operation" moving a bit. ![MenuEdit.png](/attachments/98ba3705-156f-468d-99fe-4b3d8e3bfc85) The Help menu mostly getting a cleanup with some icons changed and removed, and addition of "Splash" and "About" ![HelpMenu3.png](/attachments/dd2e6087-a610-4ce4-9f60-e08d74f50c11)
Harley Acheson added 1 commit 2023-04-07 04:51:49 +02:00
3a98234229 UI: Topbar Menu Changes
A number of proposed changes to the Topbar menus to make them a bit
more organized, safer, discoverable, and easier to use quickly.
Harley Acheson added this to the User Interface project 2023-04-07 04:51:58 +02:00
Harley Acheson added this to the 4.0 milestone 2023-04-07 04:52:04 +02:00

The original discussion is here. I'm not sure there was any consensus from the UI team members on this. There were some comments on specific but not the overall ideas.
https://archive.blender.org/developer/D8706

My issues with this:

  • I think "Install Application Template..." is too prominent, not something you want to see every time you create a new file. It's too hidden now, but I think the proper location is in the preferences. This also relates to extensions design #106254, which I expect will be the main wait to install application templates. There should be a list somewhere in the preferences where you can add and remove app templates.
  • The order and grouping of the file menu is inconsistent with other 3D/creative apps I'm familiar with. For example Maya, Houdini and Photosop have Import/Export next to each other just like Blender now. Are there good counter examples? I think they are also quite different operations than new/open/save in how you use them.
  • I think there's not enough grouping now in the File menu, the entire range from New to Import is a blur to me, difficult to scan quickly.
  • The Edit and Help menu are fine with me.
  • Putting only developer tools in the app menu is strange, if we were designing this from scratch I don't think anyone would suggest it. Seems more logical to have a Develop menu then, visible when using Developer Extras. Could be a top level menu or a submenu of another menu.
The original discussion is here. I'm not sure there was any consensus from the UI team members on this. There were some comments on specific but not the overall ideas. https://archive.blender.org/developer/D8706 My issues with this: * I think "Install Application Template..." is too prominent, not something you want to see every time you create a new file. It's too hidden now, but I think the proper location is in the preferences. This also relates to extensions design #106254, which I expect will be the main wait to install application templates. There should be a list somewhere in the preferences where you can add and remove app templates. * The order and grouping of the file menu is inconsistent with other 3D/creative apps I'm familiar with. For example Maya, Houdini and Photosop have Import/Export next to each other just like Blender now. Are there good counter examples? I think they are also quite different operations than new/open/save in how you use them. * I think there's not enough grouping now in the File menu, the entire range from New to Import is a blur to me, difficult to scan quickly. * The Edit and Help menu are fine with me. * Putting only developer tools in the app menu is strange, if we were designing this from scratch I don't think anyone would suggest it. Seems more logical to have a Develop menu then, visible when using Developer Extras. Could be a top level menu or a submenu of another menu.
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Member

I'm not sure there was any consensus from the UI team members on this

No, "consensus" was not the best word. That patch and the discussion started with quite a few negative comments at first that improved as suggestions were rolled into it. It sort of settled into a place that most people seemed to like. But nice to get a chance to restart the discussion.

I'm personally not too invested in anything here; I just think it a nice time to consider with 4.0

I think "Install Application Template..." is too prominent...the proper location is in the preferences

Yes, that would be nice.

Import/Export next to each other just like Blender now. Are there good counter examples

No. I think someone just mentioned in a devtalk thread that it was too easy to select the wrong menu and do an import instead of an export. I mostly stuck that change in so we could talk about and not forget about it.

I think there's not enough grouping now in the File menu, the entire range from New to Import is a blur to me, difficult to scan quickly

And would get a bit worse with #106254. I find sections easier to scan if there is only one icon on the first item. With existing menu that would be a new separator between "New" and "Open" and removing some later icons.

have a Develop menu then, visible when using Developer Extras. Could be a top level menu or a submenu of another menu.

Agreed, but I have had no luck in suggesting that we stop using the "blender logo" menu.

> I'm not sure there was any consensus from the UI team members on this No, "consensus" was not the best word. That patch and the discussion started with quite a few negative comments at first that improved as suggestions were rolled into it. It sort of settled into a place that most people seemed to like. But nice to get a chance to restart the discussion. I'm personally not too invested in anything here; I just think it a nice time to consider with 4.0 > I think "Install Application Template..." is too prominent...the proper location is in the preferences Yes, that would be nice. > Import/Export next to each other just like Blender now. Are there good counter examples No. I think someone just mentioned in a devtalk thread that it was too easy to select the wrong menu and do an import instead of an export. I mostly stuck that change in so we could talk about and not forget about it. > I think there's not enough grouping now in the File menu, the entire range from New to Import is a blur to me, difficult to scan quickly And would get a bit worse with #106254. I find sections easier to scan if there is only one icon on the first item. With existing menu that would be a new separator between "New" and "Open" and removing some later icons. > have a Develop menu then, visible when using Developer Extras. Could be a top level menu or a submenu of another menu. Agreed, but I have had no luck in suggesting that we stop using the "blender logo" menu.
Contributor

I'd like to leave feedback as user.

  1. Splash Screen is something I access quite often, and I think it makes perfect sense that it's in the app category. When I wanted to find it for the first time I just thought "this icon looks like splash screen one it must be here" and it was. Its very intuitive and doesn't deserve to be hidden.

  2. I agree with Brecht that most of the changes are fine, but File menu is changing too much and gets very very inconsistent with other softwares. Grouping of Import/Export is very important and intuitive, they also need to be seperated from others. I just know i'll have to search for them any time I open that because they're not visibly separated. Also I don't think anyone else has the issue of mixing them up.

  3. Saving options also need to be separated from Import/Export options. It might make sense to group them, but again, visual association is very importation. When I open menu that is quite large I wanna remember things like "Save is in the second group", "import/export is forth one" and etc. That's how those things work and changes disrupt that.

What I would change in File menu is drop Data Previews with Clean Up and External Data as it belongs there, but nothing else. Not even Defaults menu. Defaults is very different thing from others. It changes Application entirely and can't be grouped with Clean Up and External Data which are .blend file exclusive properties.

I'd like to leave feedback as user. 1. Splash Screen is something I access quite often, and I think it makes perfect sense that it's in the app category. When I wanted to find it for the first time I just thought "this icon looks like splash screen one it must be here" and it was. Its very intuitive and doesn't deserve to be hidden. 2. I agree with Brecht that most of the changes are fine, but File menu is changing too much and gets very very inconsistent with other softwares. Grouping of Import/Export is very important and intuitive, they also need to be seperated from others. I just know i'll have to search for them any time I open that because they're not visibly separated. Also I don't think anyone else has the issue of mixing them up. 3. Saving options also need to be separated from Import/Export options. It might make sense to group them, but again, visual association is very importation. When I open menu that is quite large I wanna remember things like "Save is in the second group", "import/export is forth one" and etc. That's how those things work and changes disrupt that. What I would change in File menu is drop Data Previews with Clean Up and External Data as it belongs there, but nothing else. Not even Defaults menu. Defaults is very different thing from others. It changes Application entirely and can't be grouped with Clean Up and External Data which are .blend file exclusive properties.
First-time contributor

I like the grouping, and the removal of those separators. Used to seeing import and export next to each other everywhere, but the two things look the same from a text and icon perspective. Separating them is good. There isn't enough stuff in file menu to get lost and wonder where the import or export went if you can see one of them.

Could take this opportunity to combine "about" and "splash", they serve similar purposes

I like the grouping, and the removal of those separators. Used to seeing import and export next to each other everywhere, but the two things look the same from a text and icon perspective. Separating them is good. There isn't enough stuff in file menu to get lost and wonder where the import or export went if you can see one of them. Could take this opportunity to combine "about" and "splash", they serve similar purposes
Contributor
  1. I would also combine about and splash.
  2. Thank god About Blender is finally in the Help menu, where it belongs.
  3. Import and Export should be next to each other. Yes, they are possible to mistake, and it can have destructive consequences, like overwriting file on accident, but that should be addressed properly. Breaking the proper UI grouping just because we don't have proper file overwrite warning dialogs is just embarrassing. Two wrongs don't make a right.
1. I would also combine about and splash. 2. Thank god About Blender is finally in the Help menu, where it belongs. 3. Import and Export should be next to each other. Yes, they are possible to mistake, and it can have destructive consequences, like overwriting file on accident, but that should be addressed properly. Breaking the proper UI grouping just because we don't have proper file overwrite warning dialogs is just embarrassing. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Pablo Vazquez approved these changes 2023-09-01 23:55:29 +02:00
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Pablo Vazquez left a comment
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Mixed this review with the other patch. Sorry for the noise.

Mixed this review with the other patch. Sorry for the noise.
Pablo Vazquez dismissed pablovazquez’s review 2023-09-01 23:55:45 +02:00
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Closing this. A subset of these changes (Edit and Help Menus) were committed with 347e4692de

Closing this. A subset of these changes (Edit and Help Menus) were committed with 347e4692de
Harley Acheson closed this pull request 2023-09-08 19:53:12 +02:00

Pull request closed

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