Overlapping geometry shows black faces on Cycles Blender 3.1 (Ray Tracing Precision) #96475

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opened 2022-03-15 02:56:10 +01:00 by Emi Martinez · 49 comments

System Information
Operating system: Windows-10-10.0.19041-SP0 64 Bits
Graphics card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.5.0 NVIDIA 511.65

Blender Version
Broken: version: 3.1.0, branch: master, commit date: 2022-03-08 18:16, hash: c77597cd0e
Worked: 3.0.1

Short description of error
The new feature "Cycles RayTracing Precision"
https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Reference/Release_Notes/3.1/Cycles#Ray_Tracing_Precision
Is producing black faces on Overlapping geometry. This not happend on Blender 3.0.1.

I think an on /off switch for the Cycles RayTracing Precision could solve the overlapping geometry problem.
Thanks!

Exact steps for others to reproduce the error
Just open the file on Blender 3.0.1 and 3.1 and you'll see the difference.

Here are some images:

F12928198 F12928200
Blender 3.0.1 Blender 3.1

cubes overlapping.blend

Here is a link to blender community for requesting an On /Off Switch to solve the overlapping geometry problem:
https://blender.community/c/rightclickselect/084V/

**System Information** Operating system: Windows-10-10.0.19041-SP0 64 Bits Graphics card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB/PCIe/SSE2 NVIDIA Corporation 4.5.0 NVIDIA 511.65 **Blender Version** Broken: version: 3.1.0, branch: master, commit date: 2022-03-08 18:16, hash: `c77597cd0e` Worked: 3.0.1 **Short description of error** The new feature "Cycles RayTracing Precision" https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Reference/Release_Notes/3.1/Cycles#Ray_Tracing_Precision Is producing black faces on Overlapping geometry. This not happend on Blender 3.0.1. I think an on /off switch for the Cycles RayTracing Precision could solve the overlapping geometry problem. Thanks! **Exact steps for others to reproduce the error** Just open the file on Blender 3.0.1 and 3.1 and you'll see the difference. Here are some images: |![F12928198](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F12928198/image.png)|![F12928200](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F12928200/image.png)| | -- | -- | |Blender 3.0.1|Blender 3.1| [cubes overlapping.blend](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F12928193/cubes_overlapping.blend) Here is a link to blender community for requesting an On /Off Switch to solve the overlapping geometry problem: https://blender.community/c/rightclickselect/084V/
Author

Added subscriber: @Emi_Martinez

Added subscriber: @Emi_Martinez

#102987 was marked as duplicate of this issue

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Emi Martinez changed title from Overlapping geometry shows black faces on Blender 3.1 to Overlapping geometry shows black faces on Cycles Blender 3.1 2022-03-15 03:02:09 +01:00
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Added subscribers: @leesonw, @brecht, @Alaska

Added subscribers: @leesonw, @brecht, @Alaska
Member

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Needs Developer To Reproduce'

Changed status from 'Needs Triage' to: 'Needs Developer To Reproduce'
Member

CC @brecht or @leesonw what should be done with this report? It seems like this is a known issue and I'm not sure how easy it is to fix.

In #96475#1323188, @Alaska wrote:
I just thought I would add an extra comment to help the developers make a decision.

From my own testing this issue does not effect OptiX. CUDA and CPU when testing on my computer both have issues. This issue was introduced by 74afc86d4b based on my own testing.


It looks like this is a known issue. As noted in the release notes:

There can still be artifacts with rendering overlapping geometry, in some cases more severe than before. Such overlapping geometry should be removed, or have a small distance added in between.


Could we have an on / off switch for this feature?
Thanks!

Please use other channels for user feedback and feature requests: https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Communication/Contact#User_Feedback_and_Requests

CC @brecht or @leesonw what should be done with this report? It seems like this is a known issue and I'm not sure how easy it is to fix. > In #96475#1323188, @Alaska wrote: > I just thought I would add an extra comment to help the developers make a decision. > > From my own testing this issue does not effect OptiX. CUDA and CPU when testing on my computer both have issues. This issue was introduced by 74afc86d4b based on my own testing. --- It looks like this is a known issue. As noted in the release notes: > There can still be artifacts with rendering overlapping geometry, in some cases more severe than before. Such overlapping geometry should be removed, or have a small distance added in between. --- > Could we have an on / off switch for this feature? > Thanks! Please use other channels for user feedback and feature requests: https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Communication/Contact#User_Feedback_and_Requests
Emi Martinez changed title from Overlapping geometry shows black faces on Cycles Blender 3.1 to Overlapping geometry shows black faces on Cycles Blender 3.1 (Ray Tracing Precision) 2022-03-15 03:16:42 +01:00
Member

I just thought I would add an extra comment to help the developers make a decision.

From my own testing this issue does not effect OptiX. CUDA and CPU when testing on my computer both have issues. This issue was introduced by 74afc86d4b based on my own testing.

I just thought I would add an extra comment to help the developers make a decision. From my own testing this issue does not effect OptiX. CUDA and CPU when testing on my computer both have issues. This issue was introduced by 74afc86d4b based on my own testing.

Added subscriber: @lictex_1

Added subscriber: @lictex_1

Changed status from 'Needs Developer To Reproduce' to: 'Archived'

Changed status from 'Needs Developer To Reproduce' to: 'Archived'

This is not considered a bug currently, it's a documented trade-off of the new method.

This is not considered a bug currently, it's a documented trade-off of the new method.
Member

In #96475#1323543, @brecht wrote:
This is not considered a bug currently, it's a documented trade-off of the new method.

Are the rendering differences between CPU/CUDA and OptiX in this scenario considered a bug?

> In #96475#1323543, @brecht wrote: > This is not considered a bug currently, it's a documented trade-off of the new method. Are the rendering differences between CPU/CUDA and OptiX in this scenario considered a bug?

No.

No.
Author

In #96475#1323543, @brecht wrote:
This is not considered a bug currently, it's a documented trade-off of the new method.

I really don't know if this is the pleace to ask.
But there is a way to implement an on /off switch for this feature?
I know that blender 3.1 release was about performance, but this trade-off is huge!

> In #96475#1323543, @brecht wrote: > This is not considered a bug currently, it's a documented trade-off of the new method. I really don't know if this is the pleace to ask. But there is a way to implement an on /off switch for this feature? I know that blender 3.1 release was about performance, but this trade-off is huge!
Added subscribers: @rawee-4, @Bhagath-Goud, @juang3d, @dupoxy, @PratikPB2123, @mano-wii
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Added subscriber: @Icedcg

Added subscriber: @Icedcg

Sorry, Didn't find same bug submitted before. So what about the people that don't have GPU with OptiX tech? Previously it was so convenient to not bother with overlapping geometry to render something. But now you always have to merge this meshes into a single mesh... Just consumes time for no reason honestly.

Sorry, Didn't find same bug submitted before. So what about the people that don't have GPU with OptiX tech? Previously it was so convenient to not bother with overlapping geometry to render something. But now you always have to merge this meshes into a single mesh... Just consumes time for no reason honestly.
Author

In #96475#1342416, @Icedcg wrote:
Sorry, Didn't find same bug submitted before. So what about the people that don't have GPU with OptiX tech? Previously it was so convenient to not bother with overlapping geometry to render something. But now you always have to merge this meshes into a single mesh... Just consumes time for no reason honestly.

Completely agree.
Here is a link to blender community for requesting an On /Off Switch to solve the overlapping geometry problem:
https://blender.community/c/rightclickselect/084V/

> In #96475#1342416, @Icedcg wrote: > Sorry, Didn't find same bug submitted before. So what about the people that don't have GPU with OptiX tech? Previously it was so convenient to not bother with overlapping geometry to render something. But now you always have to merge this meshes into a single mesh... Just consumes time for no reason honestly. Completely agree. Here is a link to blender community for requesting an On /Off Switch to solve the overlapping geometry problem: https://blender.community/c/rightclickselect/084V/
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Added subscriber: @zhanghua

Added subscriber: @zhanghua
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Added subscriber: @Vyach

Added subscriber: @Vyach
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Added subscriber: @Rincewind3D-1

Added subscriber: @Rincewind3D-1

Added subscriber: @APEC

Added subscriber: @APEC

Not acceptable "trade-off", for architectural modeling...

Not acceptable "trade-off", for architectural modeling...
Author

In #96475#1376513, @APEC wrote:
Not acceptable "trade-off", for architectural modeling...

Not acceptable at all, in any modelling work. There should be a way to swith this off..

> In #96475#1376513, @APEC wrote: > Not acceptable "trade-off", for architectural modeling... Not acceptable at all, in any modelling work. There should be a way to swith this off..
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Added subscriber: @Damian-Trebilco

Added subscriber: @Damian-Trebilco

Added subscriber: @Brett-Witty

Added subscriber: @Brett-Witty

I found this behaviour continued independent of choosing CPU, CUDA or Optix rendering in Cycles.

If it's documented behaviour, it doesn't appear to come with tools to identify or deal with the "trade off". I had components that rendered fine individually, but exhibited the bug only in a geometry nodes combined object.

I found this behaviour continued independent of choosing CPU, CUDA or Optix rendering in Cycles. If it's documented behaviour, it doesn't appear to come with tools to identify or deal with the "trade off". I had components that rendered fine individually, but exhibited the bug only in a geometry nodes combined object.
Member

Added subscribers: @bribi, @iss

Added subscribers: @bribi, @iss

I noticed that this problem can be somewhat alleviated if the mesh is made out of geometry nodes. Realize Instances seems to fix the geometry for the renderer to not exhibit this behaviour.

I noticed that this problem can be somewhat alleviated if the mesh is made out of geometry nodes. *Realize Instances* seems to fix the geometry for the renderer to not exhibit this behaviour.

In #96475#1399011, @Brett-Witty wrote:
I noticed that this problem can be somewhat alleviated if the mesh is made out of geometry nodes. Realize Instances seems to fix the geometry for the renderer to not exhibit this behaviour.

Short test. Not true. Please attach example.
66671837.png

> In #96475#1399011, @Brett-Witty wrote: > I noticed that this problem can be somewhat alleviated if the mesh is made out of geometry nodes. *Realize Instances* seems to fix the geometry for the renderer to not exhibit this behaviour. Short test. Not true. Please attach example. ![66671837.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F13333262/66671837.png)

My apologies, issue #99238 was merged with this one. The geometry isn't as obviously overlapping as your example, (and seems to be mostly just intersecting) but seems to manifest in the same problem. In that issue, Realize Instances did fix it. In your example, the realized instances will be definitely overlapping, but in #99238 it was not the case.

These might be unrelated issues, but I didn't merge the issues.

My apologies, issue #99238 was merged with this one. The geometry isn't as obviously overlapping as your example, (and seems to be mostly just intersecting) but seems to manifest in the same problem. In that issue, *Realize Instances* did fix it. In your example, the realized instances will be definitely overlapping, but in #99238 it was not the case. These might be unrelated issues, but I didn't merge the issues.

@Brett-Witty my guess that vertices have little shift (due to float error) after realizing. So z-fighting appears less.

@Brett-Witty my guess that vertices have little shift (due to float error) after realizing. So z-fighting appears less.

Any solution or workaround on this problem?
I cant switch to blender 3+ because of this...

Any solution or workaround on this problem? I cant switch to blender 3+ because of this...

In #96475#1413889, @APEC wrote:
Any solution or workaround on this problem?
I cant switch to blender 3+ because of this...

only to not make z-fighting polys.
Displace modifier or shrinkwrap-offset will help to fix,

> In #96475#1413889, @APEC wrote: > Any solution or workaround on this problem? > I cant switch to blender 3+ because of this... only to not make z-fighting polys. Displace modifier or shrinkwrap-offset will help to fix,

In #96475#1413985, @Vyach wrote:
only to not make z-fighting polys.
Displace modifier or shrinkwrap-offset will help to fix,

not possible in architecture modeling with hundreds small elements (objects) or even in one single mesh to do that...

> In #96475#1413985, @Vyach wrote: > only to not make z-fighting polys. > Displace modifier or shrinkwrap-offset will help to fix, not possible in architecture modeling with hundreds small elements (objects) or even in one single mesh to do that...

In #96475#1413998, @APEC wrote:

In #96475#1413985, @Vyach wrote:

not possible in architecture modeling with hundreds small elements (objects) or even in one single mesh to do that...

Now you just do not have ability to use cheat.
Try to randomize positions a little, then…
Example b3.3:
untitled.blend
изображение.png

> In #96475#1413998, @APEC wrote: >> In #96475#1413985, @Vyach wrote: > not possible in architecture modeling with hundreds small elements (objects) or even in one single mesh to do that... Now you just do not have ability to use cheat. Try to randomize positions a little, then… Example b3.3: [untitled.blend](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F13470460/untitled.blend) ![изображение.png](https://archive.blender.org/developer/F13470464/изображение.png)

Added subscribers: @Piergiorgio_PG, @mod_moder

Added subscribers: @Piergiorgio_PG, @mod_moder
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Added subscriber: @kalugra23

Added subscriber: @kalugra23
Thomas Dinges added this to the 3.1 milestone 2023-02-08 15:52:44 +01:00

One question, using Blender 3.0.1 can cause some issue for the redesign and new features of Geometry Nodes from Blender 4.1?

One question, using Blender 3.0.1 can cause some issue for the redesign and new features of Geometry Nodes from Blender 4.1?
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Reference: blender/blender#96475
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